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Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

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Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#231
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like there can't be an accurate way to measure this. Pre-register patient problems, and see how fast doctors solve problems on average/median. Then it doesn't matter how jovial/amicable the doc is. With enough data you can fish out potential signals (and then test them properly), maybe bedside manner really doesn't matter, maybe being on time is more important. (Because then people spend less time in the cli…

Sorry no, it doesn't work like that. In either case. Doctors, like professors, are evaluated by former patients based on a mix of factors. In your doctor example, doctors don't "solve problems". They see patients. Many times these patients present with conflicting and hard-to-resolve symptoms. I imagine with the internet this has gotten worse. They use a mix of Occam's Razor, deductive reasoning, and social psycholog…

Over decades, yes, but that is moving the goalpost.

The vast majority of healtcare problems are dependent on using the right known technique (medication, surgery, etc.) and of course the problem is finding that, so diagnosis. Handing out morphine is not a solution in the genral case.

Long-term health is sadly largely independent of acute healthcare providers' work. It depends on genetics, environmental factors, behavior (exercise, diet, lifestyle) and a stochastic factor of acute problem solving (as the body breaks down more and more depends on doctors, and the fast and correct identification and application of the best healthcare technique).

So healthcare has two categories, the first is the common flu, I have some gastro issues, refer to specialist, manage chronic illnesses (diabetes, pain, low/high blood pressure) and the other is usually the problem for specialists, when they have no or wrong idea what's going on and thus an acute problem becomes a year(s) long trail of tears.

Now, that said, I'm not advocating for ignoring the edge cases and just use this one simple magic formula to decide who can play doctor. But we are still stuck in the dark, because we focus on the complexity, the long term, the human component, the expertise, yet fail to do the most basic thing to get at least somewhat reliable data.

And I'm aware of the problem of fishing for signals in data, but without it we can't even start the trial and error process, we can't differentiate between the two cases, and on average let's say we end up doing nothing.

Furthermore, we know that the obvious solution is to refactor the system. But that rarely presents a real possibility for education and human long term health. (You know, the small stuff :)) It'd be easy to ban smoking and alcohol and give less damaging stuff for people instead and spend more to treat addicts, and introduce negative income tax as a form of basic income to help poverty to reduce stress and help mental health to reduce number of smokers. Similarly it'd be easy to reform schools, and do all of the above to help parents to have more time for their kids so they get a better nurturing youth overall, which makes them ambitious and motivated to learn, study, explore and understand. And it'd be easy to do all this, but that's not likely. Hence the proposal for simple but maybe vastly effective changes.

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#232
post #118

There's a much better way to hold educators to account - have other educators sit in on classes. But this is often very strongly resisted, apparently it's 'unprofessional'.

I'd be curious to hear who thinks this is unprofessional. Not any educators I know.

I think I read it in reference to university lecturers.

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#233
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The average mark is generally fixed at around 75% You just made that up. > So a professor that systematically inflates grades will be called out. Yyyyyyyeaaaahh...where? From experience, the average mark given to Harvard humanities undergraduates is an A regardless of quality. Students literally cry in the middle of class if they get an A- because they can't string together a coherent argument from evidence.

My uncle is a professor. This is what he said is required of him. Perhaps universities like harvard have lower standards. In any case, consider that this system is in fact a solution to the proposed problem.

> Perhaps universities like harvard have lower standards.

Believe me, I'll be first in line to shame their academic standards. However...

> In any case, consider that this system is in fact a solution to the proposed problem.

It might. I think that it creates other sinister problems in the process. You have to ask whether you think that the purpose of going to school is to better yourself versus competing against your neighbors. If a person does poorly in class because of someone else's performance, that's pretty fucked up. Likewise, if someone does well in class because of someone else's performance, that's also fucked up. The system you appear to be describing perversely encourages sabotage and cheating, because learning is secondary to "winning", because you're fucked by other people succeeding. My intuition is that systems that treat grades like a competition produce a combination of accidental failures and assholes who treat other people poorly.

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a college instructor I found that when I tried hard - putting a lot of thought into pedagogy, having weekly (open notes) quizzes, assigning challenging but fair homework - I got terrible evaluations, even though the average grade in my class was higher than other teachers who were teaching the same course. When I phoned it in, didn't really try, was very lax with the homework and often made the quizzes tak…

> "When I was a college instructor I found that when I tried hard - putting a lot of thought into pedagogy, having weekly (open notes) quizzes, assigning challenging but fair homework - I got terrible evaluations, even though the average grade in my class was higher than other teachers who were teaching the same course. When I phoned it in, didn't really try, was very lax with the homework and often made the quizzes…

Sure, but that's the sort of data we have to deal with in this arena. Who's going to run a large randomized trial where students are purposely assigned to different classes (keeping in mind that schedule conflicts already add additional constraints to this which may bias these assignments) and then, furthermore, have the instruction fixed apart from how easy the assignments are? Is it even fair to the students to knowingly assign students to relatively poorer teaching? Clearly it happens all the time, every department has that professor who is known for being a bad teacher yet they still have to assign classes.

In speaking with other grad students this seemed to be a well-known phenomenon, to the point that most other grad students intentionally didn't put much time into their teaching and basked in the positive reviews as a result. It was suggested many times to me that I was spending too much time thinking about my teaching. In my case, the lax teaching was not intentional, I simply was overcommitted that semester and had less time to prepare.

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a college instructor I found that when I tried hard - putting a lot of thought into pedagogy, having weekly (open notes) quizzes, assigning challenging but fair homework - I got terrible evaluations, even though the average grade in my class was higher than other teachers who were teaching the same course. When I phoned it in, didn't really try, was very lax with the homework and often made the quizzes tak…

Did your reviews not ask for justification of the ratings?

There are a bunch of ratings 1-10, and then a place to optionally add comments. It's hard to consolidate information from 200+ comments, but, then again, most students do not fill out the comment section anyway.

(In a sense, I guess the whole thing is optional - after all, it is anonymous, and we don't check that every student has filled the whole thing out. It also switched from in-class to an online form during the time I was teaching, and the response rate went down quite a bit as a result, but this was after the situation I mentioned above.)

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#236
post #215
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a sense of entitlement result in grade inflation? Well, the obvious way is if you pervasively require students evaluations, students systematically evaluate professors based on the grades they received, and these evaluations are used to make staffing and compensation decisions by the administration, incentivizing strategic grading behavior by professors. Solution: stop the evaluations. Even most entitled stu…

The average mark is generally fixed at around 75%. So a professor that systematically inflates grades will be called out.

Hahahaha... not in the US, no way. Course-wide averages for many of the classes I taught were 85-90. The idea of a 'C' being an acceptable grade is out of the question nowadays.

Some of this probably has to do with internal requirements. For example, if you say that a student needs a 75 or better to count this course as a prereq for the next course, then do you really want half the students to have to retake the course every time? Some of this also has to do with societal expectations of getting As and Bs.

I can say, however, that the idea that a 75 is the class average is definitely not true at most US colleges.

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#237
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My uncle is a professor. This is what he said is required of him. Perhaps universities like harvard have lower standards. In any case, consider that this system is in fact a solution to the proposed problem.

> Perhaps universities like harvard have lower standards. Believe me, I'll be first in line to shame their academic standards. However... > In any case, consider that this system is in fact a solution to the proposed problem. It might. I think that it creates other sinister problems in the process. You have to ask whether you think that the purpose of going to school is to better yourself versus competing against you…

The reasoning provided here is exactly why we often explicitly told students that they were not graded on a normal distribution. I was told that, historically, when students were graded on a normal distribution, it typically led to bimodal distributions of grades - a few students continued to try, but most were convinced that if they all did poorly then they would all still do fine, and so they just tried to be "good enough" and chance it. By the time I was teaching it was simply departmental policy not to grade this way.

Even without this historical evidence, however, it does seem unfair to grade this way for exactly the reasons in BugsJustFindMe's response. It might make sense in larger first-year classes, but in the more advanced smaller classes (say, 30 students) it's likely that you're already down to a set of students who try really hard and potentially all deserve an A. There's a lot of correlation between (perceived) difficulty of the course material and the students who take the class, so there's no reason to expect that you have the same distribution of students from those beginning first-year courses in your "Advanced Stochastic Processes" course.

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#238
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America teachers get tenure so your feedback has no impact on them improving. Also if you look at literally any study of them TAs for harder courses get harsher ratings, they get harsher ratings from weaker students. I also spent a number of years as a TA I can say anecdotally that is my exact first hand experience - good reviews in easy courses like graphics, atrocious scores in design of concurrent systems. In f…

As a former TA for one of the "bad" professors, you can somewhat rescue your rating, but you basically have to be a hero, and the professor needs to not be malicious (if the prof wants to fail everyone, not a lot you can do). You have to attend every lecture (I did anyway), redirect / fix during discussion / lab, help them learn what they need to know to pass the exams, and if you have time, what they should remember…

Ohhhh, I thought that's what "CS50" meant!

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#239
post #33

To be honest, I'm not sure how teachers get and keep their jobs, but as students are graded on their studying skills, I feel like teachers should be graded every fews years on their teaching skills. My girlfriend is studying in a distance university, so she basically never meets any of her teachers. This year she has to do practices at a chosen company, and she got a teacher assigned to her who is supposed to "help"…

> as students are graded on their studying skills, I feel like teachers should be graded every fews years on their teaching skills If a teacher grades a student poorly, there can be repercussions. They have an incentive to grade fairly and accurately. The same isn't true of students, who can grade on feelings and grudges. Teachers are also subject matter experts in the material being graded. Students aren't trained a…

I absolutely agree, however a separate issue is that most teachers (at the College level) also aren't trained as educators.

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#240
post #5

My best advice I got about college teaching: University is a place of higher learning, not higher teaching. If you're relying on being spoon fed the course, you're doing it wrong.

What exactly are universities selling in that case? From an individual standpoint, sure, a student is always well-advised to take charge of their own learning process. But if you can do that, what do you need a university for? At this point I'm pretty sure the answer boils down to "a piece of paper and a dating pool."

No, because there's far more to a good learning environment than having good teachers.

I could pretend that I could've learnt the same amount by sitting at home with a reading-list for four years, but there's no way I would have.

I commented on this recently in the context of MOOCs -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18511176

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