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H-1B visa shift may favor tech companies

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Re: H-1B visa shift may favor tech companies

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But this biases the playing field in favor of those graduating from American degree mills. Undergrad is very expensive in the US, even at some public universities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this put American graduates at a disadvantage? If I attend a US public university and pay via loans, I'm now competing for a job with Indian and Chinese students who completed a graduate program (anecdotally, these can…

> Undergrad is very expensive in the US, even at some public universities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this put American graduates at a disadvantage? Sorry, I realized that I missed a word there when I wrote that line. I meant: > But this biases the playing field in favor of those immigrants graduating from American degree mills.

Wait so you’re saying that someone who puts in the effort to earn a graduate degree should not benefit from having had the initiative and putting in the work to earning this qualification?

Re: H-1B visa shift may favor tech companies

#82
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So looks like the free market solution already worked in your case. You can have the govt administer TOEFL for everyone but companies can do it right now, asking the contractor that only people that pass TOEFL be allowed to work on the project. What social system burden? H1Bs are ineligible for unemployment benefits even though they are forced to pay for state unemployment insurance. Ineligible for food stamps becaus…

Your logic seems weird to me. His company was promised a service that was unable to be fulfilled because a Government program for making available talented non-citizens actually failed. He is suggesting that the program be run as expected. While you seem to be saying it’s ok to let in unqualified folks because they will ultimately always make a positive economic impact before inevitably getting kicked out.

No, his company was literally promised nothing by the government, everything was promised by Infosys or whatever staffing company they used and they were gullible enough to believe them. If they had been misled by staffing companies like IBM using citizen employees who were fresh out of high school or with no IT experience and totally incompetent, would you blame the government as well? You cannot expect the government to be a nanny for companies that should know better. It's your logic that's weird.

Even if they had hired something directly, the government program is only responsible for checking the educational degrees, the level of security risk they may pose and not much else. Ever go to the DMV and not feel like everything can be a hundred times better if they tried a bit more? That's how efficiently and effectively government bureaucracy typically runs. There are really bad examples out there happening in overseas consulates. There was a guy whose passport was returned unstamped four times over a time period of 6 months although he was granted the visa.

You want the government to conduct knowledge tests(what kind of knowledge test?) and language tests for everyone that companies want to hire? Why should competent companies that can make proper hires be punished by even more bureaucracy and delays because a few companies cannot be bothered to be competent in choosing employees to hire or good staffing companies?

If you think it works well, why not extend the same govt run knowledge tests to citizens before companies hire them locally? If the government is good at scouting for talent overseas and then spoonfeed them to companies, why can't it do the same locally so companies can save HR costs?

The government via the H1B program does not promise vetted and amazing talent to companies. All it does is say "If you're having difficulty hiring citizens locally but find someone talented who is not a citizen, we will provide a way for you to legally hire them as long as they have a four year bachelors degree".

Anyway my point was that the free market solution is being held back because of the power that staffing companies and regular companies hold over their immigrant employees. Reduce or remove that power and natural market forces will kick in and automatically hurt staffing companies and normal companies that are trying to game the system by paying less or making people work more or stick with their jobs for years on end. You cannot imagine the levels of stress and anxiety immigrants go through in fear of being legally out of status within an hour and subject to deportation. I think everyone how bad it feels to get fired or laid off. Now multiple that by ten because you have no legal status anymore. It is so bad that some were seeking psychological help, therapy and counseling when Trump got elected because of panic attacks.

Even if companies find only talented people, what's stopping companies from overworking and underpaying them, and not giving them pay hikes as their experience goes up? The same abuse that reduces labor power in the market will still happen.

Companies will be forced to pay more and treat them well by not overworking them, or else immigrants will switch jobs sooner than later. If any of the above happens, they'd hire from overseas less or stop doing it because it's not as profitable anymore compared to hiring local citizens, unless they need really someone talented that they cannot find locally, in which case competent people that were selected via interviews will come in, instead of incompetent people.

This would be a huge blow to the third party placemtn body shop business model which is where a lot of abuse happens. It'd go belly up overnight unless pay rates goes up. Why would someone stick with them instead of joining the clients directly.

If a company brings in someone incompetent, they pay the price for having a bad employee compared to their competitors. Even if they fire them, that company just wasted a lot of time and money in fees and salary etc. onboarding someone they had to fire.

If people are fired, let them stay legally stay for a few months trying to find a new job and then start accruing illegal status after that time. What purpose is served by kicking people out immediately causing them to violate rent leases and sell their possessions in a big rush? If anything, it helps the local economy a bit.

Remember how Google, Apple, etc. etc. got into deep trouble for no-poaching agreements and were dealt a heavy fine for hurting the labor market? There is a similar effect going on now with tying visas to companies and making it hard for immigrants to switch jobs. Having vetted and talented people stuck in jobs for years at low pay rates and high work hours isn't going to help the situation.

Re: H-1B visa shift may favor tech companies

#83

It might decrease the chances for outsourcing shops. But it also decreases the chance for everyone else who has not studied in the US. E.g. myself (european degree, with various jobs at leading tech companies in their field) would have an even worse chance than it is already at the moment.

Most countries give somewhat preferential treatment to graduates of their own Universities (including most European ones). Why shouldn’t the US?

Foreign graduates who earn a degree from the US have:

* already contributed to the American economy * demonstrated some amount of “success” in American education and social system * likely have created social and work networks that allow them to succeed after graduation

So from the perspective of choosing folks who are both 1) Skilled and 2) Will likely adapt/succeed in American society and economy, the case for favoring US University degrees seems reasonable.

Re: H-1B visa shift may favor tech companies

#84
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Undergrad is very expensive in the US, even at some public universities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this put American graduates at a disadvantage? Sorry, I realized that I missed a word there when I wrote that line. I meant: > But this biases the playing field in favor of those immigrants graduating from American degree mills.

Wait so you’re saying that someone who puts in the effort to earn a graduate degree should not benefit from having had the initiative and putting in the work to earning this qualification?

No, I am saying that handing over immigration decisions to for-profit degree mills will lead to problems. For example, see news about Tri Valley University from few years ago [1].

[1] https://www.mercurynews.com/2011/01/20/tri-valley-university...

Re: H-1B visa shift may favor tech companies

#85
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In such a system, maybe only experienced hires would get visas and fresh graduates wouldn't.

And that's bad because?

I am incredibly grateful for having had the opportunity to participate in the American job market right out of college. I imagine shutting the door on qualified promising foreign candidates for jobs isn’t a good strategy, if only because it would completely bar people like me from the amazing opportunities that I have had.

Re: H-1B visa shift may favor tech companies

#86
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless we implement a new visa for graduates of American universities we experience brain drain. We would be exporting American educated individuals to other countries rather than making use of them ourselves. It also doesn't account for the fact that H1B isn't just for engineers. Not all highly skilled professionals get paid salaries commensurate with the IT and CS industries. So now we also need to split it by job…

Salaries for other fields would rise due to the reduced supply of foreign labor. That is a good thing.

No it’s not. These are skilled positions we’re talking about. Skills that take enormous social and economic contributions to develop. The US economy will always benefit from having more skilled workers.

Re: H-1B visa shift may favor tech companies

#87
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait so you’re saying that someone who puts in the effort to earn a graduate degree should not benefit from having had the initiative and putting in the work to earning this qualification?

No, I am saying that handing over immigration decisions to for-profit degree mills will lead to problems. For example, see news about Tri Valley University from few years ago [1]. [1] https://www.mercurynews.com/2011/01/20/tri-valley-university...

You picked one fake mill. There are over 1.1 million foreign graduate students. The foreign degree mill theory is not based on facts, only anecdotes.

Re: H-1B visa shift may favor tech companies

#89

As a person from New Zealand without an advanced degree (from anywhere) but with 30+ years industry experience (and previously granted an H-1B in 2001), this seems like the wrong way to tackle the problem of Indian body shops. I was selected in this year's lottery in April and am still waiting for them to start processing the case -- according to their web site it could easily take until sometime in February, ten mon…

The term country quotas makes me so mad. Country quotas in the GC system are absolutely awful, because they base things on the one thing you cant change, where you were born. They favor iddly biddly countries like NZ, where the mediocre Kiwis get GCs way before well qualified and much better compensated Indians. (If you sense the condescension towards NZ in the previous sentence, its intentional. Its to give you a sense for how an Indian felt reading your post.)

Re: H-1B visa shift may favor tech companies

#90
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I am saying that handing over immigration decisions to for-profit degree mills will lead to problems. For example, see news about Tri Valley University from few years ago [1]. [1] https://www.mercurynews.com/2011/01/20/tri-valley-university...

You picked one fake mill. There are over 1.1 million foreign graduate students. The foreign degree mill theory is not based on facts, only anecdotes.

Nobody, certainly not me, is disparaging the credentials of immigrant graduates from top American universities. But there exists a long tail of Universities, many of them who seem to exist solely as a pathway to fulfillment of the American Dream of immigrat students. See https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/us/international-enrollme...

Consider two statements:

A) Most immigrant graduates are of low caliber.

B) Most immigrants of high caliber have graduate degrees.

In my experience, both statements are true.

Disclosure: Immigrant, hiring manager at reputed SV company, with UG degree from my home country.

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