Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#181

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 3:44 AM UTC

umvi wrote: post #170

samd wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much do you have to save on your phone bill before you can buy a house? The difference between a cheap Android and an old iPhone isn't going to be enough to buy a home, or provide food for the family every day, or pay for (or off) an education, or pay for medical expenses, or buy a reliable car, or any of the other truly expensive things that those with wealth take for granted. Judging the spending habits of the…

I understand that poor people aren't to blame for being poor (the vast majority, at least). But this mindset only serves to keep them going in the same rut. "Poor people deserve small luxuries", "Can't you just allow them to have a few rays of sunshine in their bleak lives?", etc. In order to escape poverty, at some point you need to stop thinking and acting like a poor person and start thinking and acting like a mid…

You implicitly seem to assume that poverty is mostly about poor money management. In reality, it's substantially more complicated than that.

For some people, whose larger problems are likely unresolvable, small bright spots are the only thing making life somewhat worthwhile.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#182

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 3:52 AM UTC

darpa_escapee wrote: post #158

umvi wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having an iPhone isn't inexplicable. You can finance or lease a phone for $30-$40 a month. And given the extraordinary advantages having a smartphone provides, it would be inexplicable if they did not do so. It's inexplicable when there are alternative phones available for 1/10 the cost. Why would you choose to take on a $40/mo expense when you could buy an entire fully functioning low end Android phone for $40? >…

> Why would you choose to take on a $40/mo expense when you could buy an entire fully functioning low end Android phone for $40? I've used $40 Android phones, and they're barely usable with modern apps. Once the battery starts to degrade, which happens quickly, performance drops from barely usable to intermittently usable, with frequent freezing and reboots. Looking at Sprint.com, iPhones are available for $18 a mont…

My son couldn’t even get Uber to work on his cheap Android Phone and the battery life was horrible.

On the other hand my “luxurious” iPhone 6s I bought in 2015, is still going strong, getting updates, and speed wise, is still faster than most modern Android phones.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#183

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 3:56 AM UTC

beatgammit wrote: post #176

sjg007 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can finanace an iPhone for basically 0%.. and it could last you 5+ years. Example are the iPhone 5s that are still quite usable.

And how much does that cost compared to less expensive options? At $1k for an iPhone, you're paying $200/year if it lasts you 5 years, more if you stay on the upgrade wagon. My phone cost me $250 (Moto x4) and it's an improvement on my previous $400+ phone (Nexus 6). I could buy a new one nearly every year for the price of making payments on an iPhone. But people see a top-of-the-line product at a monthly cost they c…

And how much does that cost compared to less expensive options? At $1k for an iPhone, you're paying $200/year if it lasts you 5 years, more if you stay on the upgrade wagon.

The iPhone 7 is $449 and seeing that the 5s from 2013 which is three years older is still supported, worse case you would probably still get three years worth of updates for the 7.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#184

Post by dang » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 4:02 AM UTC

LateRuin wrote: post #19

kryogen1c wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more, lost interest here: >Psychologist Abraham Maslow believed that safety ranked second only to food and shelter as a basic human need. Someone who has food and a roof over their head today, but doesn’t know whether they will tomorrow, should be considered poor. I find this premise extremely unsatisfying and non-obvious to say the least. Life is dangerous. There's no such thing as safety. Everyone's…

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Personal attacks will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone else is. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

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Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#185

Post by dorchadas » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 4:03 AM UTC

ggm wrote: post #49

soared wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In short, (gov) assistance does __not__ decrease poverty Source? I feel as though the equal housing act and low-income housing decrease this definition of poverty by making housing secure.

I think it demands all government tax spend in ways to alleviate poverty be viewed as an externality which would not be needed in a higher income workforce. So it has qualities of tax hating but in a context of better social equity in pay. Like you, I think rent controls and low income rent support are supporting better lives for working poor, and do far more than paint over cracks, but the poverty trap is real: peop…

> Like you, I think rent controls and low income rent support are supporting better lives for working poor, and do far more than paint over cracks, but the poverty trap is real: people who can't afford a small payrise because it triggers loss of rental support or food stamps.

This is actually the one issue I've seen that consistently wins over the "Well, why don't they just get a (better) job?" crowd to supporting a higher limit, or a more varied limit, to benefits. Why would someone get a full-time job if doing so would leave them homeless and starving because they're now above getting any help whatsoever.

We usually disagree on the solutions, but at least they come to see it's a lot more nuanced than just down to the people on welfare being lazy, which is a start.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#186

Post by gniv » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 4:06 AM UTC

loco5niner wrote: post #102

gammateam wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to send the same emojis to communicate effectively and having blue bubbles is a lot more valuable than you might think If you are part of any professional membership or subscription to get you through life, then there are some similarities The point being that maybe they overspend on conspicuous consumption, using an iphone alone isnt an indicator in isolation. Who knows where the price limit is, but low i…

>Being able to send the same emojis to communicate effectively and having blue bubbles is a lot more valuable than you might think That's pretty hard to believe.

Oh, it's a thing. Random article about it: https://gizmodo.com/im-buying-an-iphone-because-im-ashamed-o...

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#187

Post by dorchadas » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 4:08 AM UTC

tracer4201 wrote: post #129

afpx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you choose the word insecure rather than bitter or something similar? Insecure means feeling that things around may easy fall apart or collapse. It doesn’t sound like your friend’s parents are remotely close to that.

I chose the word insecure because insecure is the best way to describe them. They're not really "angry" that LGBT folks, Hispanics, and Muslims are able to vote, for example. A better way to think of it is that the root cause is fear. Does that result in anger? Sometimes... but they're insecure insofar as they believe their way of life, their financial independence, and their freedom is on the verge of being taken aw…

I just want to say you're not alone in having family like that; the vast majority of my dad's side is like this (my mom's side are all basically hippies). I love them to death, and they're good people, but they're so damn insecure about their way of life (or they're insecure that they can't force it on to others, in my grandmother's case), that they want to stop others from getting opportunities for fear they might change it.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#188

Post by dorchadas » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 4:11 AM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #166

watwut wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current graduates face higher unemployment rates and lower salaries. I graduated into strong economy and nearly sure job. I had it better.

Unless you graduated before 1969...you didn't have it better: https://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2018-10-05/us-... Sure, millennials had to come of age during the big recession of 2008, but the economy has largely recovered...and graduates today have excellent employment opportunities.

Sure, if you consider only the unemployment rate. But it doesn't tell exactly whether it's skilled work, or how well the work pays. My guess is, when you compare it to purchasing power of the past, they're not any better off despite the lower unemployment rate (which also does not include people who have given up looking for employment).

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#189

Post by toasterlovin » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 4:15 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #180

beatgammit wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of what ifs. I bet that they'd be happier with a crappier phone when they lose their job and have enough savings to ride out looking for a new one. In fact, they'd probably find a better paying job if they didn't have to take the first one they could land. The problem with poverty is that many think "that's how life is" and don't realize that they can get out of the cycle. If people in poverty saved just…

If people in poverty saved just $20 per week, they'd have $1000 in one year, which is nearly a month's pay at minimum wage. $20 per week is likely the amount they spend on "luxury" items, like fast food McDouble is 'cheapest and most nutritious food in human history' https://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/10210327/McDouble-i...

It’s not. You can get 2400 calories of milk for $2.29 at the Kroger in my neighborhood.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#190

Post by souprock » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 4:17 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #118

The risk of eviction, meanwhile, can be roughly measured by the percentage of people’s incomes that they spend on shelter each month. As of 2015, 17 percent of Americans spent half or more of their incomes on rent. This is why we (here in the US) need to address housing. And I don't know what term to use. "Affordable housing" is the term I want to default to, but that gets misinterpreted by people and ends up being a…

It was more feasible to live without a car in the US because we didn't have that option. We weren't out of shape. We were used to long and unpredictable delays. If we needed to walk a hundred miles, we did it. Going longer distances, we might hope to get a ride on a sailing ship, but some people still walked.

This is still possible. Obstacles like large interstate highways are no worse than obstacles like large unbridged rivers. Not many people will tolerate it.