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I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

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Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#91

Post by darawk »

AlexandrB wrote: post #62
darawk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and right now Baidu is doing that for them. Baidu is likely not as good at it as Google, but Baidu is also much more likely to comply willingly. Google can drag their feet and build low quality censorship/anti-privacy tools for the Chinese government, and simply say "sorry it's the best we could do". By abdicating that responsibility to an actor like Baidu, who is much more aligned with the Chinese government,…

> Baidu is likely not as good at it as Google, but Baidu is also much more likely to comply willingly. Google can drag their feet and build low quality censorship/anti-privacy tools for the Chinese government, and simply say "sorry it's the best we could do". This is an argument akin to "I'm joining the system so I can change it from the inside". This can work, but you need leverage. What leverage would Google have o…

Or just...i'm joining the system, and i'm going to do whatever I can to help it as little as possible, while providing a valuable service to its people.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#92

Post by scarcely »

jldugger wrote: post #84
publub wrote: post #69

I'm really glad someone with a Chinese background finally spoke up about this. If you look at the anti-DragonFly post, you'll notice that there are almost no Chinese names on the list. Every Chinese citizen I've talked to is pro-DragonFly, myself included. DragonFly will probably be the largest step to democratizing information that has ever happened for the Chinese people. It's a huge step forward. It won't change t…

> Every Chinese citizen I've talked to is pro-DragonFly, myself included. Why would a Chinese citizen who was anti-dragonfly out themselves?

Chinese people criticize the government/party all the time when talking to each other. What even was your perception of the situation that would lead you to talk about "outing" lmao

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#93

Post by publub »

jldugger wrote: post #84
publub wrote: post #69

I'm really glad someone with a Chinese background finally spoke up about this. If you look at the anti-DragonFly post, you'll notice that there are almost no Chinese names on the list. Every Chinese citizen I've talked to is pro-DragonFly, myself included. DragonFly will probably be the largest step to democratizing information that has ever happened for the Chinese people. It's a huge step forward. It won't change t…

> Every Chinese citizen I've talked to is pro-DragonFly, myself included. Why would a Chinese citizen who was anti-dragonfly out themselves?

China suppresses free speech, yes. But it doesn’t go so far as citizens being terrified of being known as someone wanting Google to enter China. It’s not like 1984. The secret police isn’t going to come stick you and your family in an underground prison for wanting Google.

People are pretty open about what they want. Google is something many people (who know about it) want.

FWIW, yes, I could be propaganda. But if I were, I’d be doing something much more useful with my time than browsing hackernews and trying to argue against opinionated software engineers who don’t want to be convinced otherwise.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#94

Post by seanmcdirmid »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #88
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Baidu was/is extremely complicit in the ads, their ability to make money depended on them. When fraud makes its way on google, it’s usually because they got past a control, google isn’t active in making the ad work with paid search rankings.

I recall from your previous comments that you spent a lot of time in China. What's your take on dragonfly?

To be honest, I'm neutral. I don't think Google should ransom their sole to be in China, but them being there, even if much more censored, wouldn't be a net negative. Its kind of the same way I feel about Chinese Bing, the censorship is annoying, but in a pinch it is 100 times better than Baidu.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#95

Post by darawk »

j2kun wrote: post #51
darawk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and right now Baidu is doing that for them. Baidu is likely not as good at it as Google, but Baidu is also much more likely to comply willingly. Google can drag their feet and build low quality censorship/anti-privacy tools for the Chinese government, and simply say "sorry it's the best we could do". By abdicating that responsibility to an actor like Baidu, who is much more aligned with the Chinese government,…

What part of Google's behavior thus far makes you think they'll drag their feet?

You mean, other than the fact that they pulled out in the first place for ethical reasons? And that it's long been a contentious issue among the founders of the company, again, for ethical reasons? I'm not sure I can take this question seriously.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#96

Post by darawk »

j2kun wrote: post #42
traek wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a big difference between Google making data available to the Chinese government, which is what Dragonfly would do, and Google making their expertise at cataloguing and searching information available to the Chinese government, which has not been reported. The only information that the Chinese government would have access to from Google is info they already have from Baidu.

Dragonfly catalogues and indexes searches for dissident topics, linking them to the searcher's phone number. Literally a search engine for dissidents.

Do you have reason to believe that exceeds their current capabilities?

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#97

Post by traek »

j2kun wrote: post #42
traek wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a big difference between Google making data available to the Chinese government, which is what Dragonfly would do, and Google making their expertise at cataloguing and searching information available to the Chinese government, which has not been reported. The only information that the Chinese government would have access to from Google is info they already have from Baidu.

Dragonfly catalogues and indexes searches for dissident topics, linking them to the searcher's phone number. Literally a search engine for dissidents.

And that's different from Baidu in what way?

If it's not worse than the status quo, then it's not a negative impact of bringing Dragonfly to China.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#98

Post by xster »

jldugger wrote: post #84
publub wrote: post #69

I'm really glad someone with a Chinese background finally spoke up about this. If you look at the anti-DragonFly post, you'll notice that there are almost no Chinese names on the list. Every Chinese citizen I've talked to is pro-DragonFly, myself included. DragonFly will probably be the largest step to democratizing information that has ever happened for the Chinese people. It's a huge step forward. It won't change t…

> Every Chinese citizen I've talked to is pro-DragonFly, myself included. Why would a Chinese citizen who was anti-dragonfly out themselves?

Because these said people don't live in the fictional mental construct you've created where they're cowering in a corner, shivering in fear of saying the wrong thing and waiting for the white man to swoop in and defeat their oppressor.

They're just normal people living normal lives. They have 2 legs and 2 arms, eat ice cream, complain about traffic and politics in person and online the same you and I do. Google is a nice to have but at the end of the day, not that important.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#99

Post by publub »

codemac wrote: post #58
yourbandsucks wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they were making utilitarian arguments about the welfare of the people affected. It's awfully easy to stand on principle when it's the other guy who sacrifices for it.

> It's awfully easy to stand on principle when it's the other guy who sacrifices for it. Is the other guy me? or are the other guys those killed by the PRC? You would sacrifice them to search Google, I would sacrifice your Google searches for them. We do not have to agree.

Why is having Google in China going to get anyone killed? If Google isn’t there they’ll just search Baidu or Bing and whatever was going to happen is still going to happen. It’s just another search engine, albeit a much better one than what’s already there.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#100

Post by threatofrain »

creato wrote: post #11
darawk wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they won't. And that has real consequences for actual people. Google has the option to improve those people's lives by going there, even if it means bowing to the demands of Chinese censors. Nothing is gained by staying out. China isn't going to magically change its opinion on censorship because Google won't enter their market. The objections of the Google employees are shortsighted and naive.

Funny, I'd say it is your objections that are shortsighted and naive: caving to the demands of an authoritarian dictatorship steadily growing in influence.

Regardless of which perspective you choose, moral actions which sputter into no moral results are just morally disappointing.
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