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I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

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Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#81

Post by TACIXAT »

bicubic wrote: post #71
ehsankia wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. No, but you have a much better chance of actually bringing change if you're in there, than if you leave it on its own. 2. Almost every single Chinese citizen I've spoken to is for this project. I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged in their place and assume they know what's best for others. Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than s…

> I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged [...] Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them? I don't think you understand what this debate is about. This isn't about what Chinese citizens want. This is the rest of the developed world standing up and saying they don't want to be involved in aiding an oppressive re…

>This is the rest of the developed world standing up and saying they don't want to be involved in aiding an oppressive regime.

By the rest of the developed world you mean a small and loud subset of Google employees?

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#83

Post by PavlovsCat »

ehsankia wrote: post #46
ForrestN wrote: post #27

The problem with this logic is that it treats the malevolent dictatorship as a given. If you believe that there will be concentration camps, dissident crackdowns, and absolute censorship in China forever, this is a reasonable position. If you believe there is any hope for the Chinese people, foreign entities should focus on aiding the regime and the political status quo as little as possible, hypothetical ad business…

1. No, but you have a much better chance of actually bringing change if you're in there, than if you leave it on its own. 2. Almost every single Chinese citizen I've spoken to is for this project. I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged in their place and assume they know what's best for others. Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than s…

> Almost every single Chinese citizen I've spoken to is for this project.

Obviously. The people who aren't would be crazy to confide in you.

> Why not let them decide what they want for their country

So you would have been okay with Hitler "just" murdering Jews, not starting a war, as long as most Germans would have been for it? How come we think of it as Jews and others having been murdered, instead of Germans just doing something "to themselves"? Or hey, even during the war, wasn't that just Europeans doing something? Why not simply go all the way, to carbon-based life forms, or simply declaring everything the same, because "it's all just physics and chemistry"?

And whose country was Germany during that time, would you say -- that of the Nazis and their supporters, or the Germans in exile and in resistance, the ones in graves?

Just calling something "ideals" (because you don't dare to acknowledge the principles, while you reap their fruits no less) and "outrage", that's simply nothing but rich, considering your being "outraged" over the ideal of non-intervention, of "not judging" or "having to live without Google services" (just wow).

> You're not the one who has to live without dozens of Google services that only have shitty alternatives, they are.

So you do understand the logic, you simply only apply it to petty things, not murder.

https://exhibitions.ushmm.org/americans-and-the-holocaust/ma...

"Murder is not government". Now there's a thought. By the same token, looking away is not being a citizen.

Neither you, nor the people you have spoken to, got to taste the wrong end of the gun of totalitarianism. If you think only of yourself, nobody should think of you.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#84

Post by jldugger »

publub wrote: post #69

I'm really glad someone with a Chinese background finally spoke up about this. If you look at the anti-DragonFly post, you'll notice that there are almost no Chinese names on the list. Every Chinese citizen I've talked to is pro-DragonFly, myself included. DragonFly will probably be the largest step to democratizing information that has ever happened for the Chinese people. It's a huge step forward. It won't change t…

> Every Chinese citizen I've talked to is pro-DragonFly, myself included.

Why would a Chinese citizen who was anti-dragonfly out themselves?

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#85

Post by publub »

sexy_seedbox wrote: post #79
publub wrote: post #69

I'm really glad someone with a Chinese background finally spoke up about this. If you look at the anti-DragonFly post, you'll notice that there are almost no Chinese names on the list. Every Chinese citizen I've talked to is pro-DragonFly, myself included. DragonFly will probably be the largest step to democratizing information that has ever happened for the Chinese people. It's a huge step forward. It won't change t…

> this will be an entirely positive change that could save millions of lives A censored search engine will save millions of lives? Reads like propaganda to me. > DragonFly will probably be the largest step to democratizing information Democratized information... with Chinese characteristics.

> A censored search engine will save millions of lives? Reads like propaganda to me.

What in the world does censorship have to do with this? Information will strictly be more available by having Google in China, than not having Google in China. Google is orders of magnitude better than Baidu, which makes not even a superficial attempt at hiding that it censors and reranks information. DragonFly will simply not allow you to search censored phrases, rather than selectively remove results.

As to why I think it’ll save lives. Let me give you an example. I once tried to search for the US consulate in China on Baidu. The phrase for that is “美国领事馆”. Try it on Baidu. When I last searched it, the website for the consulate was on the 3rd or 4th page, the address was nowhere on Baidu, and the rest of the results were travel agencies trying to make a profit.

Now think about searching for “suicide” or “depression”. Still think it won’t save lives?

Not everything has to be about censorship and human rights with China. Partial information can still save lives.

> Democratized information... with Chinese characterisitics.

Yes, what’s your point? America was built on democracy with a nice twist of slavery.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#86

Post by [deleted] »

TACIXAT wrote: post #81
bicubic wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged [...] Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them? I don't think you understand what this debate is about. This isn't about what Chinese citizens want. This is the rest of the developed world standing up and saying they don't want to be involved in aiding an oppressive re…

>This is the rest of the developed world standing up and saying they don't want to be involved in aiding an oppressive regime. By the rest of the developed world you mean a small and loud subset of Google employees?

[deleted]

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#87

Post by [deleted] »

TACIXAT wrote: post #81
bicubic wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged [...] Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them? I don't think you understand what this debate is about. This isn't about what Chinese citizens want. This is the rest of the developed world standing up and saying they don't want to be involved in aiding an oppressive re…

>This is the rest of the developed world standing up and saying they don't want to be involved in aiding an oppressive regime. By the rest of the developed world you mean a small and loud subset of Google employees?

[deleted]

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#88

Post by lawnchair_larry »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #73
HillaryBriss wrote: post #34

wait. why would Google be any more capable of stopping ads for fraudulent medical equipment or treatments in China than Baidu is? is the implication that somehow Google would know more about the fraudsters than Baidu does?

Baidu was/is extremely complicit in the ads, their ability to make money depended on them. When fraud makes its way on google, it’s usually because they got past a control, google isn’t active in making the ad work with paid search rankings.

I recall from your previous comments that you spent a lot of time in China. What's your take on dragonfly?

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#89

Post by publub »

vtesucks wrote: post #20
NicoJuicy wrote: post #3

This is probably the first time I see something from a concerned Chinese citizen. I applaud this truthfully, it also gave me an alternative view about ( why) entering the market and what some Chinese think.

How do you know he's not propaganda. I'm not claiming so, I'm in the middle but you seem confident otherwise.

His GitHub profile looks like just a normal guy. Maybe China keeps a bunch of GitHub accounts around and makes active commits for the purpose, and posts homework solutions while they are at it. Maybe I’m a propaganda bot.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#90

Post by ngcc_hk »

You do not know how powerful chiense culture and money is. Also, all those new graduate even from aboard ... let us see who made new twins and rumour is that the guy may have said he can handle any unhealthy babies if the ccr5 or other area gene turned bad

And anyone sending helper

Similar to 6m Jews are gased or how many million is jailed for re-education to be killed mentally. Ok they are Jews, they are catholics, they are Muslims, they are ... we are all Hans one day and you will have to be as well.

Or using technology to monitor and control 1/5 humanity down to each and every movement. We can laugh that their AI is no good to do photo and id wrongly. We can improve I supposed.

This they-will-improve approach still do not get it. It is the soon to be no 1 economy in the world. You will be changed. The Beijing consensus will rule. You are just helping them not you them la.

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