I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On • Hacker News Board

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#71

Post by bicubic » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:19 AM UTC

ehsankia wrote: post #46

ForrestN wrote: post #27

The problem with this logic is that it treats the malevolent dictatorship as a given. If you believe that there will be concentration camps, dissident crackdowns, and absolute censorship in China forever, this is a reasonable position. If you believe there is any hope for the Chinese people, foreign entities should focus on aiding the regime and the political status quo as little as possible, hypothetical ad business…

1. No, but you have a much better chance of actually bringing change if you're in there, than if you leave it on its own. 2. Almost every single Chinese citizen I've spoken to is for this project. I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged in their place and assume they know what's best for others. Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than s…

> I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged [...] Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them?

I don't think you understand what this debate is about. This isn't about what Chinese citizens want. This is the rest of the developed world standing up and saying they don't want to be involved in aiding an oppressive regime. China doesn't get to hold the wellbeing of the citizens it's oppressing as a bargaining chip here.

If chinese citizens are worse off for it, they should be looking to make their government more like the west rather than making baseless pleas for the west to become more like China. Ultimately this is the heart of the debate. Is China's market size big enough to force western tech to bow down to unethical practices for some sweet $, or is the western tech industry big enough to send a loud and clear message that the Chinese regime is not acceptable to the developed world.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#72

Post by thenanyu » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:21 AM UTC

carlosdp wrote: post #59

ehsankia wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. No, but you have a much better chance of actually bringing change if you're in there, than if you leave it on its own. 2. Almost every single Chinese citizen I've spoken to is for this project. I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged in their place and assume they know what's best for others. Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than s…

> Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them? This assumes most of their citizens have all the information about the implications, which is very unlikely, for the very reason everyone is wary of Google re-entering China.

Chinese citizens are well aware of the censorship practices of their government. They are aware of the bargain that Google must strike.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#73

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:22 AM UTC

HillaryBriss wrote: post #34

wait. why would Google be any more capable of stopping ads for fraudulent medical equipment or treatments in China than Baidu is? is the implication that somehow Google would know more about the fraudsters than Baidu does?

Baidu was/is extremely complicit in the ads, their ability to make money depended on them. When fraud makes its way on google, it’s usually because they got past a control, google isn’t active in making the ad work with paid search rankings.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#74

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:23 AM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #27

The problem with this logic is that it treats the malevolent dictatorship as a given. If you believe that there will be concentration camps, dissident crackdowns, and absolute censorship in China forever, this is a reasonable position. If you believe there is any hope for the Chinese people, foreign entities should focus on aiding the regime and the political status quo as little as possible, hypothetical ad business…

[deleted]

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#75

Post by jldugger » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:24 AM UTC

> If Google were in China, perhaps the young man named Wei Zesi would not have died as a result of deadly fake medical advertisements searched through Baidu.

As the wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi makes clear, those medical adverts were not fake. They were certainly deadly. They were also run by the Second Hospital of the Beijing Armed Police Corps. A state owned hospital. On what basis would google refuse to run that ad? Barring them from advertising seems like a great way to get a midnight knock at your door from the Beijing Armed Police Corp. And it's not like an algorithm will easily tell when medical claims are is truthful.

Would the auction algorithm produced a different ad result? Google's pay per click model maximizes revenue per ad shown, not human welfare; presumably the hospital willing to pay to get to the top of the searches is willing to go the extra mile to improve click thru rates.

Would marking it more clearly as an ad have made a difference? Google is already walking down that slippery slope; today Google places ads directly in line with search results. If Baidu is able to legally get away without even marking ads, it seems like Google is an A/B test away from a very profitable locale specific change to the UI.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#76

Post by anon2018 » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:24 AM UTC

This seems to be a pure PR article, clearly not written by an average ZhangShan or LiShi in China.

Now after so many years of the GFW in effect, most people in China just won't give a damn fk about Google anymore. If Google kowtow and crawl in, they won't get a significant share of market, only that people are more convinced that "Taobao beat Amazon, Huawei beat Apple, and Baidu beat Google, oh yeah!".

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#77

Post by forkLding » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:25 AM UTC

A lot of people on here presume getting rid of a dictatorship is easy and presume the Chinese people == Chinese govt., however last time I checked the Syrian Civil War is still going on and the Arab Spring is all but vanquished.

Moreover, the Tiananmen massacre happened 30 yrs ago and somewhat fresh on the memories of my parents cos they were almost part of it and in Beijing at the time.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#78

Post by forkLding » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:27 AM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #27

The problem with this logic is that it treats the malevolent dictatorship as a given. If you believe that there will be concentration camps, dissident crackdowns, and absolute censorship in China forever, this is a reasonable position. If you believe there is any hope for the Chinese people, foreign entities should focus on aiding the regime and the political status quo as little as possible, hypothetical ad business…

You're presuming a dictatorship is easy to bring down, the Syrian Civil War is still fighting on but no-one cares anymore about their attempts for democracy.

Its not even big news on the media anymore, at this point the fighting is just a free-for-all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#79

Post by sexy_seedbox » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:29 AM UTC

publub wrote: post #69

I'm really glad someone with a Chinese background finally spoke up about this. If you look at the anti-DragonFly post, you'll notice that there are almost no Chinese names on the list. Every Chinese citizen I've talked to is pro-DragonFly, myself included. DragonFly will probably be the largest step to democratizing information that has ever happened for the Chinese people. It's a huge step forward. It won't change t…

> this will be an entirely positive change that could save millions of lives

A censored search engine will save millions of lives? Reads like propaganda to me.

> DragonFly will probably be the largest step to democratizing information

Democratized information... with Chinese characteristics.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#80

Post by codemac » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:29 AM UTC

ehsankia wrote: post #35

codemac wrote: post #10

If we counted the number of people the PRC has killed by finding them through their "great" firewall, does the OP think that number is less than bad baidu medical ads? I don't understand is the false equivalency between baidu's advertising and PRC's notorious human rights violations. This post doesn't address any of the concerns brought up by the original letter they decry?

And what about the false equivalency between PRC's human right violation and Dragonfly?

Well that's an interesting discussion, but not one the OP is having.

Google employees post letter saying DragonFly enables human rights violations.

OP posts letter saying DragonFly creates an alternative to baidu's fraudulent and dangerous advertising, and that this is a reasonable response to the letter.

It sounds like the op thinks that Baidu's advertising and human rights violations are either related, or somehow interact.