Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#161

Post by mnm1 » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 1:35 AM UTC

tracer4201 wrote: post #18

>A reasonable, common-sense definition of poverty should include not just an absolute measure of material deprivation and a relative gauge of a person’s situation compared to the rest of society. It should also strive to measure how secure people feel — in their homes, their health, and their jobs. I generally agree, but this has potential downsides. A good friend of mine from college comes from a very conservative f…

This type of insecurity is not what the article is referring to. Racists yes, but certainly not insecure (in food/shelter/safety terms that the article refers to) with a million dollar home and a head of household who is a doctor and would likely be able to get a well paying job anywhere in the country if not the world. If non white people vote will this family be out on the streets? If immigrants come over will they starve? Of course not. I don't even see how you can consider that insecurity. Hate and racism have nothing to do with being insecure.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#162

Post by kodablah » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:14 AM UTC

FakeComments wrote: post #11

sovietmudkipz wrote: post #3

This comment post is going to be pure speculation. I think the numbers in this article are right. Over the past 75 years, relative poverty has grown at a dramatic pace. Sure, everyone's quality of life has improved across the board but relative poverty is the important metric. In the past 15 years more and more of a household income is tied up in basic needs; bills and rent/mortgages are consuming higher percentages…

> Sure, everyone's quality of life has improved across the board but relative poverty is the important metric. I completely disagree — the total standard of living is the only one that matters. If you’re better off than you used to be, you’ll keep buying into society and things will keep getting better. I think there’s four factors: 1. It’s hard to view your status in absolute instead of relative terms, because it re…

> The fix to relative poverty is changing market dynamics so that small businesses are more viable while colossal ones are less so.

I was with you until the very last part. Business counts are not zero sum and more often than not a rising tide lifts all boats, dinghies and yachts alike. The ills of colossal businesses can be debated in other areas, but not as a direct relation to poverty or at least not without including the benefits they provide.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#163

Post by tathougies » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:19 AM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #59

kibwen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This attitude seems alien to me. If there's a job that nobody wants to do, the employer should offer more compensation. If that raises the price of the service such that the venture is no longer profitable, then that indicates a fundamental lack of demand for that service relative to its cost. No poor person should be expected to subsidize the comfort of the higher classes via their desperation.

> No poor person should be expected to subsidize the comfort of the higher classes via their desperation. Why do you think sweatshops exist?

Because the cost of labor / covering up illegal hiring is lower than the cost of the item produced?

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#164

Post by sjg007 » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:32 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #93

savanaly wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A phone of that cost is a luxury item. Now I'm in the category of people who can afford that and I want to make sure I'm not just living in a bubble when I dismiss what you said, so I opened up a tab and typed in "cheap phone" to google. The first result is a $20 phone from best buy. It appears to do calls, take pictures and video, do web browsing and have some library of available apps. So I don't think "People cann…

You're not wrong, people that can't pay cash for a phone shouldn't be buying one. But there are a lot of expenses in that range that are more of a necessity, car tyres that OP mentioned, other car expenses, removalists fees and bond payments, a fridge breaking down. There's some even bigger ones you can't put off like funeral expenses or missing work for medical reasons. A $500 phone gets used as an example because i…

You can finanace an iPhone for basically 0%.. and it could last you 5+ years. Example are the iPhone 5s that are still quite usable.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#165

Post by chrisco255 » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:47 AM UTC

entropeas wrote: post #35

chrisco255 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Previous generations had it way worse than us and they didn't have the suicide rates we have today. There's some things missing in modern society that I feel have faded with time, including family unity, community, ethical education (via church or similar), etc. It was reported recently that loneliness is on the rise in the U.S. and with that, I would expect that these health problems continue to rise as well.

Purchasing power through real inflation adjusted wages hasn't increased since the 70's, but costs of living have [1]. I don't think "previous generations had it way worse" than us in all regards. [1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-...

Ok, so take it back to 1940 and earlier. Poverty extremely widespread. Or take a look at countries by suicide rate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...

You'll find Jamaica, Syria, Guatemala, Pakistan, Venezuela, Iraq, Egypt, Mexico, Kenya, and a whole host of countries that are far poorer off than USA but have much lower suicide rates. You'll also notice that Japan and South Korea are higher than ours. Why is that? Poverty or economic hardship is not a predictive indicator of suicide.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#166

Post by chrisco255 » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:50 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #63

chrisco255 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Previous generations had it way worse than us and they didn't have the suicide rates we have today. There's some things missing in modern society that I feel have faded with time, including family unity, community, ethical education (via church or similar), etc. It was reported recently that loneliness is on the rise in the U.S. and with that, I would expect that these health problems continue to rise as well.

Current graduates face higher unemployment rates and lower salaries. I graduated into strong economy and nearly sure job. I had it better.

Unless you graduated before 1969...you didn't have it better: https://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2018-10-05/us-...

Sure, millennials had to come of age during the big recession of 2008, but the economy has largely recovered...and graduates today have excellent employment opportunities.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#167

Post by mback00 » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:55 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #101

chiefalchemist wrote: post #14

"Thanks in part to increased government assistance, U.S. poverty according to this measure has fallen, especially for children." Pardon me but I'm a tight-ass when it comes to words / language and how their use effects perception. In short, (gov) assistance does __not__ decrease poverty. It might sugar coat poverty. It might keep the poverty stricken alive. Etc. But poverty remains the same. It's there. Alive and wel…

Poverty is not having enough money. If the gov't gives you money, you are no longer in poverty. Now, if your point is that the gov't payments don't actually solve the underlying issue, that I would agree with.

Um. An overly socialized economy incentivizes counterproductive behavior. The early puritans in Massachusetts /started/ with the extremity of a socialist system of non-ownership with the hope that all would collectively contribute to a wonderful Christian society. They starved until they based their society on ownership and focus on equality of opportunity instead of equality of outcome.

My point is that once you start just giving money away - you shift to the early Massachusetts model...which leads to poverty and starvation. Even the most moral of men (can you argue that early puritans were more focused on morality than us?) will fail under a system that rewards sloth.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#168

Post by lazyasciiart » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:56 AM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #140

InclinedPlane wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may surprise you, but many people have high limit credit cards with APRs well below 20%, some even well below 10%. If you have great credit then you can get loans and credit pretty cheap.

If you're in a position to secure one of those pleasant credit cards is it likely you'd be one of the people relying on a credit card as a sole means to survive a sudden layoff? I think you're assuming that because it's easy for people when they're doing well it must always be easy.

There are plenty of people with a good income and reasonable housing costs, and from memory that's about all that's asked for on a credit application. But they spend everything else on vacations and private schools and whatever, so they'd go down fast if their income stopped.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#169

Post by lazyasciiart » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 3:00 AM UTC

bittercynic wrote: post #127

forapurpose wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what they would say if they were posting on HN. Here, people who lack money are usually the 'other' about whom we talk, often in stereotypes. But these are a large number of individuals, each with their own widely varying needs and situations; the only way to learn about someone is to ask. Certainly, to understand me, I would not want anyone to rely on what my neighbors say. The parent comment presumes knowi…

I didn't read so much judgement in that comment, but trying to understand why neighbors are engaging in seemingly self-destructive behavior. It really is hard to understand if you haven't been through it yourself, or at least been very close to someone who is going through it.

Or at least attempted to educate yourself by reading a fraction of the widely available literature on the topic, ranging from personal histories to neurological studies.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#170

Post by umvi » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 3:04 AM UTC

samd wrote: post #136

umvi wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having an iPhone isn't inexplicable. You can finance or lease a phone for $30-$40 a month. And given the extraordinary advantages having a smartphone provides, it would be inexplicable if they did not do so. It's inexplicable when there are alternative phones available for 1/10 the cost. Why would you choose to take on a $40/mo expense when you could buy an entire fully functioning low end Android phone for $40? >…

How much do you have to save on your phone bill before you can buy a house? The difference between a cheap Android and an old iPhone isn't going to be enough to buy a home, or provide food for the family every day, or pay for (or off) an education, or pay for medical expenses, or buy a reliable car, or any of the other truly expensive things that those with wealth take for granted. Judging the spending habits of the…

I understand that poor people aren't to blame for being poor (the vast majority, at least). But this mindset only serves to keep them going in the same rut. "Poor people deserve small luxuries", "Can't you just allow them to have a few rays of sunshine in their bleak lives?", etc.

In order to escape poverty, at some point you need to stop thinking and acting like a poor person and start thinking and acting like a middle class person. When and how do you propose that happens? Frugal middle class don't smoke and drink their money away, nor buy top shelf electronics and food products if money is tight. They cut coupons, buy off-brand, save, and invest. At some point, poor people need to be somehow taught these things that we intrinsically know.

Poor people need money, but they need (perhaps even more) education and role models to emulate which is something the government can't easily provide.

It's probably the oldest and most difficult problem to solve in the history of humanity because it requires a large amount of people to be empathetic and charitable with not just their money, but their time.