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How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

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Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#91

Post by TeMPOraL »

qubex wrote: post #75
TomMarius wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a native speaker? Maybe you just have trouble understanding what leads to people learning English. My anecdote: I have enough people around me (literally several millions in my city) that speak my language. All books, movies and TV shows I ever wanted to see are available translated in very high quality. There is so much original content that a lot of people simply don't even crave foreign content, that inclu…

Yes, I am a native English speaker (British on my mother's side, education), but I'm also a native Italian speaker (father's side, raised in Italy). My concern was primarily directed at the fact that it's strange to indicate that one is learning a language to participate in a market which is a subset of all social interactions.

> My concern was primarily directed at the fact that it's strange to indicate that one is learning a language to participate in a market which is a subset of all social interactions.

It's not strange, especially wrt. in particular English. People really don't learn English (or make their kids learn English) to immerse themselves in the British or American culture (the latter is pushed worldwide anyway). They do it because jobs require it, and will for the predictable future. In fact many people nowadays, including my wife & I, are talking about getting kids to learn Chinese along with English, to hedge our bets for who will be the dominant economic power 20 years from now.

(Also note that when people learn English, they don't expect talking just with the English or Americans. They want to be able to talk with everyone else in the world, since all the other people are know or are learning English too.)

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#92

Post by Toboe »

davidw wrote: post #21

Is anyone else sick of dystopian stuff? I want to read something where... sure, there are problems, but where people are out there doing difficult, adventurous and good things. Something maybe even kind of motivational. Or at best, just nice escapist stories without all the doom and gloom. If I want to read about stressful, bad, evil things, I'll pick up a newspaper.

>I want to read something where... sure, there are problems, but where people are out there doing difficult, adventurous and good things.

Have you tried Walkaway?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkaway_(Doctorow_novel)

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#93

Post by marssaxman »

qubex wrote: post #50
thaumasiotes wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Destroying cultures and languages in the name of progress doesn't really empower people. Languages don't get destroyed by rearing children in isolation so they're left unable to speak. Languages die when their population shifts over to a language with more to offer. (Generally, the ability to participate in a larger market.) You can go pretty much anywhere rare languages are spoken and hear parents tell you they ho…

I agree with you wholeheartedly until you stated this: > (Generally, the ability to participate in a larger market.) It all hinges on your use of market : I would have written society . It's extremely telling that nowadays ‘market’ and ‘society’ have become almost synonymous, not because markets have subsumed the role of societies at large, but because monetary exchanges have become the de facto be-all and end-all of…

> not because markets have subsumed the role of societies at large, but because monetary exchanges have become the de facto be-all and end-all of social interaction.

This was part of the joy of Burning Man: it felt like an experimental laboratory where we could try out non-exchange-based modes of society. After a week in an environment which was, thrillingly, both utopia and dystopia at once, we could then go home and see about recreating the good parts of those experiences in our everyday lives.

(I don't know if it still feels that way - it got too big and too institutional for me to feel like I belonged there anymore, but it's possible that it still works for people who are less sensitive about the presence of complex power structures.)

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#94

Post by barrow-rider »

opwieurposiu wrote: post #35
devoply wrote: post #10

> that violence and illegal activities may be both legitimate and necessary to pursue justice. Dystopian fiction appears to subtly expand the political imagination of viewers and readers to encompass a range of scenarios outside the normal realm of democratic politics, and what people then consider reasonable and thinkable appears to expand accordingly. America was founded on a revolution, and often changing the syst…

It seems kind of silly to argue that the democratic politics is legitimate and violence is not, when the whole point of the democratic state is to create a monopoly on violence. What fiction fails to teach you is that being good at violence is a lot of work! To be good at it you need to take krav or bjj or mma classes at least 3 times a week and go to the gun range at least once a week. I personally think society wou…

> when the whole point of the democratic state is to create a monopoly on violence.

The definition of a state, democratic or otherwise, is the monopoly of violence. Doesn't matter if it's absolutist monarchy, Scandinavian-style Social Democracy, or Al-Shabab-style Somali tribal rule -- if you have the ability to compel action then you can create a state.

ISIS was issuing passports, IDs, and currency, for example. You don't have to play by their rules... but then again they don't have to keep .45 rounds from going into the back of your head.

Monopoly of Force is entirely separate from issues of authority or legitimacy; everyone can hate your illegitimate rule but if they can't do shit about it then you still win. You hate the Tsar for having too much authority, but he's got secret police and an army so you stfu and keep your head down.

Meanwhile, US citizens hate Trump but concede he won a legitimate election and, in spite of having like 40% of the world's guns, don't revolt in the street.

> What fiction fails to teach you is that being good at violence is a lot of work! To be good at it you need to take krav or bjj or mma classes at least 3 times a week and go to the gun range at least once a week.

I disagree with all of those minimums. Even in the Marines I didn't go to the range once a week, and I was a 'POG' supporting an infantry unit. We only PT'd 3 times a week, though some of us did more.

> I personally think society would gain vast benefits from making dueling legal again. Sadly the lawyers would never allow it because they would lose half their business!

History would disagree, and dueling was plainly outlawed for a reason.

The appeal-ad-lawyeram is also not an argument; there were plenty of rich lawyers when dueling was a thing (several US Founding Fathers come to mind), and the legal business is currently incredibly competitive in terms of jobs right now -- without dueling.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#95

Post by emiliobumachar »

mirimir wrote: post #14

It's an interesting study for sure. But, as part of the background, it would have been useful to point out that much dystopian fiction is intentionally political. Rod Serling had initially proposed a program of political commentary, but CBS said "no way". So we got The Twilight Zone . George Romero's Night of the Living Dead series was also intentionally political. In other words, much dystopian fiction is actually l…

Interesting take. Are there any works of dystopian fiction that someone here thinks could be considered anti-democracy propaganda?

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#96

Post by labster »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #31
labster wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the major arguments of postmodernism is that the "shared model" of modernist progress -- universal "progress" had some bad side effects. Destroying cultures and languages in the name of progress doesn't really empower people. And modernity brought other new large problems, from global warming to weak communities to mass propaganda. There were so many excesses that we had to put on the brakes. That said, postmo…

> Destroying cultures and languages in the name of progress doesn't really empower people. Languages don't get destroyed by rearing children in isolation so they're left unable to speak. Languages die when their population shifts over to a language with more to offer. (Generally, the ability to participate in a larger market.) You can go pretty much anywhere rare languages are spoken and hear parents tell you they ho…

Right, so you're a modernist, and that's ok. You have an implicit assumption that the larger culture is better, and that being more economically productive is desirable. Many hunter-gatherer societies offered more leisure time than modern cultures. If that's your point of reference, Western culture is an abject failure.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#97

Post by Animats »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #58
taneq wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More generally, we have a decided lack of novels describing a better future. Maybe that's because it's hard to be optimistic about the future starting from now? The worst case is that the environment goes to hell and we die, or the economy crashes and life becomes hell, or killer robots kill us all (at the behest of some state actor or just because they loooove paperclips). The best case is we get humans to not beh…

Honestly, the first part of your response sounds pretty much like the very symptom of the problem discussed here. You presented a very bleak outlook, no doubt informed as much by dystopian fiction (and the culture enjoying it) as it is by rational analysis. If everything seems destined to hell, with no one capable of doing anything about it, people just give up and live their lives focused on short-term needs. This e…

Everyone here owes themselves to watch Disney's "Tomorrowland".

"'We saved a seat for you?' That's a commercial."

I was just looking at stills from Tomorrowland, for inspiration for things to build in Second Life. Second Life is a good test for futuristic architecture, because, after you build it, you get to live, work, and play in it. You find out if anyone else wants to. Not much passes that test.

Tomorrowland is a theme park. Swooping roads with no offramps. Big round unflyable craft that land in cradles. Giant tubes full of plants. It's not a working future.

"Minority Report" is considered one of the better examples of futuristic urban design in film. It suffers from the usual problems. Giant arcology structures mean nobody in the interior volume has a window. The road network's connectivity is far too low. Overall, though, it looks halfway workable.

"I, Robot" is a bit more workable. Worlds with a lot of "nature", like "Avatar" and "Jurassic Park" do OK. The giant tree thing tends to be overdone.

There's a whole world building department at USC's film school.[1] Their videos are not impressive. There's a startup in this space.[2] Mostly they do title sequences and ads.

[1] http://worldbuilding.institute

[2] https://www.imaginaryforces.com/

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#98

Post by Skrillex »

AstralStorm wrote: post #49
wtracy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is how science fiction authors have been shooting themselves in the foot. The golden age of science fiction, the era when science fiction was most popular with the public, occurred when most of that fiction had a positive outlook on the future. I don't think that's coincidence. To any aspiring authors out there: If you want to stand out and be successful, write stories that show a path to successfully overco…

The difference is that this future was never delivered. Pessimism is expected after that. Worse, showing how obstacles are overcome and not seeing it applied in real world is soul crushing. This is often because politics turned from initially being a way of solving problems to a popularity ascend machismo contest - and it infects everything.

>Worse, showing how obstacles are overcome and not seeing it applied in real world is soul crushing.

I think that this is an important consideration. If I am not mistaken, this is part of the reason why the super-geniuses in the larger comic universes (e.g. Marvel) do not cure cancer.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#99

Post by ahartmetz »

_carl_jung wrote: post #44
ahartmetz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try Iain Banks, though IMO the world-building is better than the plots.

Not to be pedantic, but I think you mean Iain M Banks. Same person but the stuff he writes under Iain Banks isn't sci-fi.

Yes, thanks. I knew about the two names he uses but couldn't be bothered to look up which is which.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#100

Post by TeMPOraL »

Animats wrote: post #97
TeMPOraL wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the first part of your response sounds pretty much like the very symptom of the problem discussed here. You presented a very bleak outlook, no doubt informed as much by dystopian fiction (and the culture enjoying it) as it is by rational analysis. If everything seems destined to hell, with no one capable of doing anything about it, people just give up and live their lives focused on short-term needs. This e…

Everyone here owes themselves to watch Disney's "Tomorrowland". "'We saved a seat for you?' That's a commercial." I was just looking at stills from Tomorrowland, for inspiration for things to build in Second Life. Second Life is a good test for futuristic architecture, because, after you build it, you get to live, work, and play in it. You find out if anyone else wants to. Not much passes that test. Tomorrowland is a…

Oh, so Second Life is still a thing? I was meaning to check it out for close to a decade now.

> Tomorrowland is a theme park. Swooping roads with no offramps. Big round unflyable craft that land in cradles. Giant tubes full of plants. It's not a working future.

Yeah, the architecture definitely isn't. It just looks nice. But that wasn't the thing I meant in my comment. I meant the underlying theme. Better future through competence, dreams and - yes - technology. And (spoilers) how all was almost lost when they unleashed the positive feedback loop of expecting dystopia and giving up. I like that movie because it's the first thing in a long time that rekindles this, perhaps childlike, positive thinking, that we can make things better.

"- Huxley's "Brave New World", Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451", Orwell's "1984": once considered fiction, these futuristic novels are actually happening right now and they seem to be getting worse. Yes, Miss Newton?

- Can we fix it?

- Sorry?

- I get things are bad, but what are we doing to fix it?"

--

Thanks for the thoughts on urban design in other sci-fi movies. I admit I never thought much about it when I watched them; I'll likely pay more attention from now on. Also anything in Second Life you recommend checking out?

--

EDIT: Also for "commercial", it was great. I almost jumped out of my seat when I saw rockets landing old sci-fi/SpaceX style, and a launch loop just casually shooting a rocket the next moment. Sci-fi porn that scene was for sure.

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