Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#41

Post by soared » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:15 PM UTC

tracer4201 wrote: post #18

>A reasonable, common-sense definition of poverty should include not just an absolute measure of material deprivation and a relative gauge of a person’s situation compared to the rest of society. It should also strive to measure how secure people feel — in their homes, their health, and their jobs. I generally agree, but this has potential downsides. A good friend of mine from college comes from a very conservative f…

I understood it as the author saying fiscally secure, not socially. (Housing is not reliant on their next paycheck, etc.)

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#42

Post by ip26 » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:17 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #26

chrisco255 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the availability of cheap credit has made me worry a bit less about getting slammed with some unexpected expense. That's not to say that I don't put money away for retirement and rainy days...but credit cards do make it easier to float if you suddenly find yourself unemployed.

I’ve never heard anyone refer to 20%+ interest as cheap credit until now.

Your parent is probably thinking about leveraging the grace period. It's a useful strategy that lets you pay for an unexpected expense & liquidate assets at your leisure, instead of needing to sit on large quantities of low-return liquid assets.

This strategy does require strong discipline, but I agree with your parent, I find it is a very useful tool.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#43

Post by soared » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:18 PM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #14

"Thanks in part to increased government assistance, U.S. poverty according to this measure has fallen, especially for children." Pardon me but I'm a tight-ass when it comes to words / language and how their use effects perception. In short, (gov) assistance does __not__ decrease poverty. It might sugar coat poverty. It might keep the poverty stricken alive. Etc. But poverty remains the same. It's there. Alive and wel…

> In short, (gov) assistance does __not__ decrease poverty

Source? I feel as though the equal housing act and low-income housing decrease this definition of poverty by making housing secure.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#44

Post by jhayward » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:18 PM UTC

justaman wrote: post #37

tracer4201 wrote: post #18

>A reasonable, common-sense definition of poverty should include not just an absolute measure of material deprivation and a relative gauge of a person’s situation compared to the rest of society. It should also strive to measure how secure people feel — in their homes, their health, and their jobs. I generally agree, but this has potential downsides. A good friend of mine from college comes from a very conservative f…

I just wanted to point out that racism like that is on its last leg. I used to live in a rural, very conservative, upper class area. While they do watch fox news, they are not racist. Its close minded to call fox news racist or cnn socialist.

"I'm not saying they're racist, I'm just saying that racists like them a lot" [1] (paraphrased from Gillum)

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2018/11/...

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#45

Post by afpx » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:19 PM UTC

tracer4201 wrote: post #18

>A reasonable, common-sense definition of poverty should include not just an absolute measure of material deprivation and a relative gauge of a person’s situation compared to the rest of society. It should also strive to measure how secure people feel — in their homes, their health, and their jobs. I generally agree, but this has potential downsides. A good friend of mine from college comes from a very conservative f…

Why did you choose the word insecure rather than bitter or something similar? Insecure means feeling that things around may easy fall apart or collapse. It doesn’t sound like your friend’s parents are remotely close to that.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#46

Post by kibwen » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #36

kartan wrote: post #6

> Luckily, there is just such a concept: It’s called material security. This is really important. There are people that are one paycheck away from not being able to afford rent and basic necessities. I have lost my job in the past. I was calm and just enjoyed the time while I was looking for a new job. I have money saved. For a lot of people that will have been an extremely stressful situation. That kind of stress is…

> I was calm and just enjoyed the time while I was looking for a new job. I have money saved. For a lot of people that will have been an extremely stressful situation. That kind of stress is related to bad-decision taking Without that phenomenon (the "must get a job very soon / now" mindset), loads of low paid / unskilled positions would just never be filled. No-one would work crap jobs. It feels to me like the econo…

This attitude seems alien to me. If there's a job that nobody wants to do, the employer should offer more compensation. If that raises the price of the service such that the venture is no longer profitable, then that indicates a fundamental lack of demand for that service relative to its cost. No poor person should be expected to subsidize the comfort of the higher classes via their desperation.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#47

Post by ams6110 » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

FakeComments wrote: post #12

prolikewh0a wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mainly due to the drug epidemics isn't it?

You’re both right if the drug epidemic is partly fueled by economic woes, as it seems to be.

More likely the converse. A person with a decent middle-class income who becomes addicted to opioids can end up unable to keep his job, lose his income, fall behind on debts, and end up evicted.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#48

Post by kartan » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:22 PM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #36

kartan wrote: post #6

> Luckily, there is just such a concept: It’s called material security. This is really important. There are people that are one paycheck away from not being able to afford rent and basic necessities. I have lost my job in the past. I was calm and just enjoyed the time while I was looking for a new job. I have money saved. For a lot of people that will have been an extremely stressful situation. That kind of stress is…

> I was calm and just enjoyed the time while I was looking for a new job. I have money saved. For a lot of people that will have been an extremely stressful situation. That kind of stress is related to bad-decision taking Without that phenomenon (the "must get a job very soon / now" mindset), loads of low paid / unskilled positions would just never be filled. No-one would work crap jobs. It feels to me like the econo…

> To me, it feels like the alternative, even if you could fix it, would result in eliminating swathes of currently provided services.

I see your point. But, in my experience, it is the opposite. I have worked in Sweden and Spain, two very different job markets.

Sweden is way more effective because employees have more rights and more possibilities to look for another job. In Spain, a lot of companies used to be very bad at what they were doing, but were using very cheap labour so they were able to have a profit anyway.

It is the selection of the fittest. When you have abundant cheap labour the most abusive companies succeed. What that is not the case, smart responsible companies have an advantage.

Poverty and stress is not a winning bet.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#49

Post by ggm » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #43

chiefalchemist wrote: post #14

"Thanks in part to increased government assistance, U.S. poverty according to this measure has fallen, especially for children." Pardon me but I'm a tight-ass when it comes to words / language and how their use effects perception. In short, (gov) assistance does __not__ decrease poverty. It might sugar coat poverty. It might keep the poverty stricken alive. Etc. But poverty remains the same. It's there. Alive and wel…

> In short, (gov) assistance does __not__ decrease poverty Source? I feel as though the equal housing act and low-income housing decrease this definition of poverty by making housing secure.

I think it demands all government tax spend in ways to alleviate poverty be viewed as an externality which would not be needed in a higher income workforce. So it has qualities of tax hating but in a context of better social equity in pay.

Like you, I think rent controls and low income rent support are supporting better lives for working poor, and do far more than paint over cracks, but the poverty trap is real: people who can't afford a small payrise because it triggers loss of rental support or food stamps.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#50

Post by umvi » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

User23 wrote: post #32

Poverty is not a disease. It's not a malady that can be treated or cured. It is a consequence of many factors, but above all it is primarily a consequence, not a cause. What causes poverty? Well like any other widespread social phenomenon, the causes are varied. Crime is an obvious one. Poor decision making is another. For example, a seemingly absurd 70% of windfall recipients go broke[1]. It's evident that the major…

I generally agree with you, but I'm somewhat convinced windfalls are hard to manage for both rich and poor. This is because it has less to do with poor decision making and more to do with the new target on your back. You are now a wounded sheep with hungry predators all around you (in the form of family, friends, thieves, lawyers, etc). I first ran across this idea when I read a reddit thread mentioning Jack Whittaker [1]. Jack Whittaker was a rich dude who won the lottery (net worth $15M before winning). His life has been a trainwreck since. I don't know if he's lost it all yet - my main point is to suggest that the public nature of lottery sets you up for failure and has less to do with competence than you might guess.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/24vo34/whats_the...