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Bee-brained

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Re: Bee-brained

#21

Post by eplanit »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #18
maxwell wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of animals have opposable thumbs: https://animalsake.com/list-of-animals-with-opposable-thumbs The only thing that makes the Homo genus unique is control of fire.

And our genetic code. And schools and fire departments and lasers.

Exactly. And libraries, moon/Mars/deep space exploration....

It amuses me when there's an article that recognizes a similarity between humans and other species, many jump onto the "see, they're _just_ like us" meme.

What I'd be intrigued by is if there is any other species (is there _any_?) that has, century over century, via pure self- and collective-determination, advanced their state of being, achieved new capabilities, live in ways completely different than their ancestors, etc. I'm not including genetic adaptation or evolution to suit an environment -- I mean self-driven advancement. Seems we're quite unique, in that regard.

Re: Bee-brained

#22

Post by sdegutis »

eplanit wrote: post #21
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And our genetic code. And schools and fire departments and lasers.

Exactly. And libraries, moon/Mars/deep space exploration.... It amuses me when there's an article that recognizes a similarity between humans and other species, many jump onto the "see, they're _just_ like us" meme. What I'd be intrigued by is if there is any other species (is there _any_?) that has, century over century, via pure self- and collective-determination, advanced their state of being, achieved new capabil…

Right, that's called rationality. All other creatures are irrational, they act only on pure instinct, even if that instinct is sophisticated, such as the primates seen sharpening sticks for hunting, or the birds that drop hard shells into traffic so that cars crack it open and they get to eat what's inside, or the ways bees self-organize. Sophisticated, but still just instinct. We're the only rational creatures.

Re: Bee-brained

#23

Post by pavel_lishin »

ivanhoe wrote: post #11
pavel_lishin wrote: post #6

I'm probably not qualified to say this, but just about every example of consciousness in bees and flies that they described could just as easily be explained if they were automatons.

In my experience social insects have much more individuality than most people believe. I kept ants for a while and it was shocking to me how each of them has it's own, unique patterns of behavior. Some like to wander far outside, some prefer to stay close to the entrance. Some are more aggressive, some less. They react to danger and feeding differently, some are easily crazed out, some stay calm. It's hard to see thi…

Is it possible that you can't tell them apart, and that you just assume that all the ants that "craze out" are the ants you previously saw crazing out?

Re: Bee-brained

#24

Post by theli0nheart »

sdegutis wrote: post #22
eplanit wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And libraries, moon/Mars/deep space exploration.... It amuses me when there's an article that recognizes a similarity between humans and other species, many jump onto the "see, they're _just_ like us" meme. What I'd be intrigued by is if there is any other species (is there _any_?) that has, century over century, via pure self- and collective-determination, advanced their state of being, achieved new capabil…

Right, that's called rationality. All other creatures are irrational, they act only on pure instinct, even if that instinct is sophisticated, such as the primates seen sharpening sticks for hunting, or the birds that drop hard shells into traffic so that cars crack it open and they get to eat what's inside, or the ways bees self-organize. Sophisticated, but still just instinct. We're the only rational creatures.

You’re joking, right?

Re: Bee-brained

#25

Post by richsinn »

fiblye wrote: post #3

Really interesting article. It's seeming like the more we learn about other life, the more we realize not much separates humans but a couple of thumbs and some decent dexterity. I wonder if someday we'll reach a point where we recognize consciousness in most animals and think it was ridiculous that earlier people didn't see such an obvious fact. Just like how "common knowledge" just a few decades/years ago was that b…

Furthermore, this kind of stuff always makes me wonder if/when other genus will eventually evolve into "intelligent" beings (with "intelligent" being loosely defined).

The Homo genus evolved around ~2-3 million years ago; homo sapiens came about ~250K years ago. What's not to say that 2 to 3 million years from now, there'll be some other intelligent species from other genus branches? It always tickles my brain to think about this.

Also relevant: https://io9.gizmodo.com/5780020/if-humanity-went-extinct-wha...

Re: Bee-brained

#26

Post by sdegutis »

theli0nheart wrote: post #24
sdegutis wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, that's called rationality. All other creatures are irrational, they act only on pure instinct, even if that instinct is sophisticated, such as the primates seen sharpening sticks for hunting, or the birds that drop hard shells into traffic so that cars crack it open and they get to eat what's inside, or the ways bees self-organize. Sophisticated, but still just instinct. We're the only rational creatures.

You’re joking, right?

No, but I think the confusion could be in the definition of rational. We're the only creatures who have the ability to reason abstractly, which is why we're able to do many things even the most intelligent other creatures can't.

Re: Bee-brained

#27

Post by maxwell »

sdegutis wrote: post #26
theli0nheart wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re joking, right?

No, but I think the confusion could be in the definition of rational. We're the only creatures who have the ability to reason abstractly, which is why we're able to do many things even the most intelligent other creatures can't.

From the article:

> These bees retrieved their spatial memories entirely out of context, at a time when there was no possibility of foraging and so no immediate need for communication. The function is unclear. They might have ‘just thought’ about these locations spontaneously during the night. Or perhaps the communication is a strategy for consolidating their spatial memory. Scientists have since found that a bee’s memories of the previous day are strengthened when they are exposed to elements of these memories while in deep sleep. Perhaps bees not only think and ‘talk’, but dream?

> The key implication of Lindauer’s discovery is that bees are capable of ‘offline thinking’ about spatial locations, and of linking these locations to a time of day, in the absence of an external trigger. That’s not what should happen if bees’ memories are merely prompted by environmental stimuli, combined with internal triggers such as hunger. Bees, then, appear to have at least one of the principal hallmarks of consciousness: representations of time and space.

That sounds like evidence that bees may be capable of "reason[ing] abstractly".

What can humans accomplish using solely "intelligence" that other animals can't?

All of the unique behaviors I see in humans involve use of fire-derived technology.

Re: Bee-brained

#28

Post by sdegutis »

maxwell wrote: post #27
sdegutis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but I think the confusion could be in the definition of rational. We're the only creatures who have the ability to reason abstractly, which is why we're able to do many things even the most intelligent other creatures can't.

From the article: > These bees retrieved their spatial memories entirely out of context, at a time when there was no possibility of foraging and so no immediate need for communication. The function is unclear. They might have ‘just thought’ about these locations spontaneously during the night. Or perhaps the communication is a strategy for consolidating their spatial memory. Scientists have since found that a bee’s m…

Isn't that enough? We can control fire. We can create technology from this one unique capability, which no other creature can. Others have the physical capability to control fire but they cannot actually do it.

Re: Bee-brained

#29

Post by decebalus1 »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #6

I'm probably not qualified to say this, but just about every example of consciousness in bees and flies that they described could just as easily be explained if they were automatons.

your comment reminds me of one of the themes in Blindsight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel).

Re: Bee-brained

#30

Post by pavel_lishin »

decebalus1 wrote: post #29
pavel_lishin wrote: post #6

I'm probably not qualified to say this, but just about every example of consciousness in bees and flies that they described could just as easily be explained if they were automatons.

your comment reminds me of one of the themes in Blindsight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel) .

A fellow Watts fan! Glad to meet you!
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