How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes • Hacker News Board

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#81

Post by ctchocula » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 2:34 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #65

krapp wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's important to both suspend disbelief to enjoy fiction from reality and take fiction with a big grain of salt that it's often missing considerations of reality. Ironically, this happens in the utopian case with Star Trek, which gets invoked as an example of a valid and functioning "post scarcity" society based on fabrication and automation, despite the technology in that series being essentially magic.

The core of the Star Trek post-scarcity is a) near-free energy, and b) ubiquitous access to matter replicators. The replicator is kind of magic, but not total impossibility, and rough approximations are within realm of conceivable "future technology". But I think first and foremost, Star Trek is being brought as an example of post-scarcity so often because it's pretty much the only story that presented such society a…

Trekonomics is a nice non-fiction book about the utopian ideas presented in Star Trek and especially TNG. There, they treat the replicator as more of a metaphor for post-scarcity rather than recipe (i.e. Star Trek technology is sufficient but not necessary).

I would say I'm more optimistic than you about post-scarcity. Bertrand Russell makes a case for the insanity of modern society by noting that during WWI half of British populace was sufficient to produce enough for all of Britain. Even if we allow for some margin of error in his statement, since that time productivity in the US has increased 4.5x since then.

To me the show is increasingly relevant. For example, it presents a clear answer to a popular criticism to UBI: what is to prevent everyone from staying home to play video games and leeching off society?

The optimistic answer is that once society can produce enough goods for everyone, the traditional value system of society (material wealth => proxy for contributions to society => virtue) loses meaning and will be overtaken by new ones (contributing to society => virtue).

I agree with most of your summary except the end. What if the problems in the US and around the developed world are more due to how society is organized rather than technological? I think the Star Trek value system is appealing and IMO something we ought to strive for.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#82

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 2:57 PM UTC

ctchocula wrote: post #81

TeMPOraL wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core of the Star Trek post-scarcity is a) near-free energy, and b) ubiquitous access to matter replicators. The replicator is kind of magic, but not total impossibility, and rough approximations are within realm of conceivable "future technology". But I think first and foremost, Star Trek is being brought as an example of post-scarcity so often because it's pretty much the only story that presented such society a…

Trekonomics is a nice non-fiction book about the utopian ideas presented in Star Trek and especially TNG. There, they treat the replicator as more of a metaphor for post-scarcity rather than recipe (i.e. Star Trek technology is sufficient but not necessary). I would say I'm more optimistic than you about post-scarcity. Bertrand Russell makes a case for the insanity of modern society by noting that during WWI half of…

My comment didn't present my full view on the topic - I was seconding the warning that "don't reason from fictional evidence" applies to both dystopia and utopia visions. In truth, I am more hopeful about the post-scarcity scenario than that comment might have implied.

I am (currently) in favour of UBI, though there are two things that I'm not sure about. One, what's to prevent prices immediately rising to eat the entire UBI, returning everything to status quo but with no welfare budget? Two, how to deal with migration from countries with no UBI to countries with UBI?

As for Star Trek itself (the TNG/DS9/VOY timeline, at least), I do consider it a good vision of what the world could be like. The question that's always in my mind is "how do we get there". I dream humanity can get to a post-scarcity era; the trick is surviving the transition.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#83

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #82

ctchocula wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trekonomics is a nice non-fiction book about the utopian ideas presented in Star Trek and especially TNG. There, they treat the replicator as more of a metaphor for post-scarcity rather than recipe (i.e. Star Trek technology is sufficient but not necessary). I would say I'm more optimistic than you about post-scarcity. Bertrand Russell makes a case for the insanity of modern society by noting that during WWI half of…

My comment didn't present my full view on the topic - I was seconding the warning that "don't reason from fictional evidence" applies to both dystopia and utopia visions. In truth, I am more hopeful about the post-scarcity scenario than that comment might have implied. I am (currently) in favour of UBI, though there are two things that I'm not sure about. One, what's to prevent prices immediately rising to eat the en…

As for prices rising - increased demand in a flexible commodity do not result in prices rising, but falling. Economies of scale, right? So many of the things that folks spend UBI money on, will get cheaper.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#84

Post by cafard » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

taneq wrote: post #36

Animats wrote: post #4

Interesting. "In the totalitarian-dystopian genre, the prototypical narrative content elements — e.g., setting, character, plot, and story morals — are relatively clear and consistent; thus, they are “filled in” according to widely shared genre conventions." Writers can thus write in such worlds without extensive world-building. It's like grinding out police procedurals or zombie novels. Not every writer can build wo…

> More generally, we have a decided lack of novels describing a better future. Maybe that's because it's hard to be optimistic about the future starting from now? The worst case is that the environment goes to hell and we die, or the economy crashes and life becomes hell, or killer robots kill us all (at the behest of some state actor or just because they loooove paperclips). The best case is we get humans to not beh…

Almost makes you wish it were the 1930s, eh?

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#85

Post by ctchocula » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #82

ctchocula wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trekonomics is a nice non-fiction book about the utopian ideas presented in Star Trek and especially TNG. There, they treat the replicator as more of a metaphor for post-scarcity rather than recipe (i.e. Star Trek technology is sufficient but not necessary). I would say I'm more optimistic than you about post-scarcity. Bertrand Russell makes a case for the insanity of modern society by noting that during WWI half of…

My comment didn't present my full view on the topic - I was seconding the warning that "don't reason from fictional evidence" applies to both dystopia and utopia visions. In truth, I am more hopeful about the post-scarcity scenario than that comment might have implied. I am (currently) in favour of UBI, though there are two things that I'm not sure about. One, what's to prevent prices immediately rising to eat the en…

Getting there is definitely the hard part. Even in the show they had to go through nuclear apocalypse and rebuild society in order to get there.

Another problem is getting people to think "contributing to society is virtuous". It's possible that this idea may be at odds with human nature (similar to Soviet and Chinese implementation of communism).

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#86

Post by taneq » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 3:15 PM UTC

cafard wrote: post #84

taneq wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More generally, we have a decided lack of novels describing a better future. Maybe that's because it's hard to be optimistic about the future starting from now? The worst case is that the environment goes to hell and we die, or the economy crashes and life becomes hell, or killer robots kill us all (at the behest of some state actor or just because they loooove paperclips). The best case is we get humans to not beh…

Almost makes you wish it were the 1930s, eh?

Radium, the wonder drug!

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#87

Post by jhbadger » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 4:04 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #63

Animats wrote: post #4

Interesting. "In the totalitarian-dystopian genre, the prototypical narrative content elements — e.g., setting, character, plot, and story morals — are relatively clear and consistent; thus, they are “filled in” according to widely shared genre conventions." Writers can thus write in such worlds without extensive world-building. It's like grinding out police procedurals or zombie novels. Not every writer can build wo…

Star Trek is arguably utopian. At least that’s how it is intended and perceived. I personally abhor the primacy of the military it glorifies, and also the fashion choices.

To be fair to Star Trek, the shows generally focus on the people on Starfleet vessels, not the civilians on planets. It's implied that war and poverty on Earth and other "developed" planets is over and the only conflict is in border regions where the Federation borders hostile civilizations. You may have a point in regard to fashion, however.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#88

Post by jeffreyrogers » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 4:36 PM UTC

beaconstudios wrote: post #71

mirimir wrote: post #14

It's an interesting study for sure. But, as part of the background, it would have been useful to point out that much dystopian fiction is intentionally political. Rod Serling had initially proposed a program of political commentary, but CBS said "no way". So we got The Twilight Zone . George Romero's Night of the Living Dead series was also intentionally political. In other words, much dystopian fiction is actually l…

I think a lot of it is rooted in the psychological warfare between Western liberalism and communism from the cold war onwards. Hell, postmodernism is largely based on socialist (actual socialist, not "left of libertarian") critiques of liberalism, and it seems to me that the postmodern tradition of criticising everything without providing a viable alternative is the root of a lot of dystopian ideas. Human history has…

What postmodernists are you referring to? I thought that as well, but after reading some actual postmodernists like Richard Rorty and Foucault I find it hard to support that idea any more. Most postmodern thinkers are left of center, sure, but I think that reflects a bias in academia more than a secret agenda.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#89

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

ctchocula wrote: post #85

TeMPOraL wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment didn't present my full view on the topic - I was seconding the warning that "don't reason from fictional evidence" applies to both dystopia and utopia visions. In truth, I am more hopeful about the post-scarcity scenario than that comment might have implied. I am (currently) in favour of UBI, though there are two things that I'm not sure about. One, what's to prevent prices immediately rising to eat the en…

Getting there is definitely the hard part. Even in the show they had to go through nuclear apocalypse and rebuild society in order to get there. Another problem is getting people to think "contributing to society is virtuous". It's possible that this idea may be at odds with human nature (similar to Soviet and Chinese implementation of communism).

> Getting there is definitely the hard part. Even in the show they had to go through nuclear apocalypse and rebuild society in order to get there.

Also a well-timed first contact with arrogant aliens, that made humans want to show their best side.

> Another problem is getting people to think "contributing to society is virtuous". It's possible that this idea may be at odds with human nature (similar to Soviet and Chinese implementation of communism).

I haven't studied this in any length, but with what little I read, my impression is that the core problem was that communism tried to do away with the concept of private property, and this concept turned out to be pretty much human nature. People want to have things to call their own, and want to see rewards proportional to their efforts. I don't feel like the concept of "contributing to society is virtuous" is at odds with human nature, it actually seems pretty aligned (after all, that's how societies form and grow). I'd love to read more about this. Any recommendations?

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#90

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #83

TeMPOraL wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment didn't present my full view on the topic - I was seconding the warning that "don't reason from fictional evidence" applies to both dystopia and utopia visions. In truth, I am more hopeful about the post-scarcity scenario than that comment might have implied. I am (currently) in favour of UBI, though there are two things that I'm not sure about. One, what's to prevent prices immediately rising to eat the en…

As for prices rising - increased demand in a flexible commodity do not result in prices rising, but falling. Economies of scale, right? So many of the things that folks spend UBI money on, will get cheaper.

But will there be increased demand? For the basics - food, shelter - the demand is pretty much proportional to population. With more money around and same demand, will competition on commodities be enough to keep the prices where they were? My naïve expectation is that they'll in fact rise, and tie up most of the UBI.