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How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

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Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#71

Post by beaconstudios »

mirimir wrote: post #14

It's an interesting study for sure. But, as part of the background, it would have been useful to point out that much dystopian fiction is intentionally political. Rod Serling had initially proposed a program of political commentary, but CBS said "no way". So we got The Twilight Zone . George Romero's Night of the Living Dead series was also intentionally political. In other words, much dystopian fiction is actually l…

I think a lot of it is rooted in the psychological warfare between Western liberalism and communism from the cold war onwards. Hell, postmodernism is largely based on socialist (actual socialist, not "left of libertarian") critiques of liberalism, and it seems to me that the postmodern tradition of criticising everything without providing a viable alternative is the root of a lot of dystopian ideas.

Human history has been on the slow crawl from worse to better for a long time. We're living in the greatest era in history, but we still act like it's a horrible time to be alive.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#72

Post by beaconstudios »

AstralStorm wrote: post #49
wtracy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is how science fiction authors have been shooting themselves in the foot. The golden age of science fiction, the era when science fiction was most popular with the public, occurred when most of that fiction had a positive outlook on the future. I don't think that's coincidence. To any aspiring authors out there: If you want to stand out and be successful, write stories that show a path to successfully overco…

The difference is that this future was never delivered. Pessimism is expected after that. Worse, showing how obstacles are overcome and not seeing it applied in real world is soul crushing. This is often because politics turned from initially being a way of solving problems to a popularity ascend machismo contest - and it infects everything.

I look forward to the day when I can place my vote in the ballot box for a party that tries to integrate the best ideas from different schools of thought to maximise human well-being rather than advocating their chosen ideology and denying that any benefit could come from the other side of the aisle.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#73

Post by another-one-off »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #58
taneq wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More generally, we have a decided lack of novels describing a better future. Maybe that's because it's hard to be optimistic about the future starting from now? The worst case is that the environment goes to hell and we die, or the economy crashes and life becomes hell, or killer robots kill us all (at the behest of some state actor or just because they loooove paperclips). The best case is we get humans to not beh…

Honestly, the first part of your response sounds pretty much like the very symptom of the problem discussed here. You presented a very bleak outlook, no doubt informed as much by dystopian fiction (and the culture enjoying it) as it is by rational analysis. If everything seems destined to hell, with no one capable of doing anything about it, people just give up and live their lives focused on short-term needs. This e…

Cheerful concurrence. It is worth remembering that most of history and indeed the present can be described in very bleak terms given a little bit of effort.

Humans have good reason to fear the future. The future is very scary. However, the future has always been very scary, and it isn't any scarier now than it has been since the invention of record keeping, where basically the same threats were present. The past is also very scary to anyone who sits down and realises that the people in the past are basically the same as the people in the present.

The future isn't going to be any bleaker than the past, it will be just as full of hope, success and vibrancy.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#74

Post by moonhorse »

taneq wrote: post #36
Animats wrote: post #4

Interesting. "In the totalitarian-dystopian genre, the prototypical narrative content elements — e.g., setting, character, plot, and story morals — are relatively clear and consistent; thus, they are “filled in” according to widely shared genre conventions." Writers can thus write in such worlds without extensive world-building. It's like grinding out police procedurals or zombie novels. Not every writer can build wo…

> More generally, we have a decided lack of novels describing a better future. Maybe that's because it's hard to be optimistic about the future starting from now? The worst case is that the environment goes to hell and we die, or the economy crashes and life becomes hell, or killer robots kill us all (at the behest of some state actor or just because they loooove paperclips). The best case is we get humans to not beh…

I’m not sure why we need to be sarcastic about a future in which “we upgrade ourselves into transhuman”. There is nothing special about “humanity”. Emotions are likely result of chemicals. We will transform ourselves and what those beings feel most likely will not resemble what we feel today. They will have their culture and art and they will not care about ours at all. It is inevitable if there is no disastrous event happening. We just need to accept that. We are one tiny step in evolution like dinosaur.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#75

Post by qubex »

TomMarius wrote: post #70
qubex wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you wholeheartedly until you stated this: > (Generally, the ability to participate in a larger market.) It all hinges on your use of market : I would have written society . It's extremely telling that nowadays ‘market’ and ‘society’ have become almost synonymous, not because markets have subsumed the role of societies at large, but because monetary exchanges have become the de facto be-all and end-all of…

Are you a native speaker? Maybe you just have trouble understanding what leads to people learning English. My anecdote: I have enough people around me (literally several millions in my city) that speak my language. All books, movies and TV shows I ever wanted to see are available translated in very high quality. There is so much original content that a lot of people simply don't even crave foreign content, that inclu…

Yes, I am a native English speaker (British on my mother's side, education), but I'm also a native Italian speaker (father's side, raised in Italy).

My concern was primarily directed at the fact that it's strange to indicate that one is learning a language to participate in a market which is a subset of all social interactions.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#76

Post by TomMarius »

qubex wrote: post #75
TomMarius wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a native speaker? Maybe you just have trouble understanding what leads to people learning English. My anecdote: I have enough people around me (literally several millions in my city) that speak my language. All books, movies and TV shows I ever wanted to see are available translated in very high quality. There is so much original content that a lot of people simply don't even crave foreign content, that inclu…

Yes, I am a native English speaker (British on my mother's side, education), but I'm also a native Italian speaker (father's side, raised in Italy). My concern was primarily directed at the fact that it's strange to indicate that one is learning a language to participate in a market which is a subset of all social interactions.

> it's strange to indicate that one is learning a language to participate in a market which is a subset of all social interactions.

Is it really? I'm sure it's strange to you - as a native English speaker, there is no language that would offer you significant new opportunities.

However I've never met a Czech person who doesn't learn English because of the market (academic/job/business opportunities) - as I said, this purpose is frequently highlighted from the youngest age (I was 4 when I was first told I need to learn English because of my future job). Also consider that until 1989 our borders were closed - meaning WE couldn't travel. It has became perfectly normal during the past 90 years to participate socially only within our own culture (and language).

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#77

Post by bambataa »

beaconstudios wrote: post #72
AstralStorm wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that this future was never delivered. Pessimism is expected after that. Worse, showing how obstacles are overcome and not seeing it applied in real world is soul crushing. This is often because politics turned from initially being a way of solving problems to a popularity ascend machismo contest - and it infects everything.

I look forward to the day when I can place my vote in the ballot box for a party that tries to integrate the best ideas from different schools of thought to maximise human well-being rather than advocating their chosen ideology and denying that any benefit could come from the other side of the aisle.

What is 'best' if not ideological?

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#78

Post by harimau777 »

omnimus wrote: post #48

Lately I have seen term Solarpunk on reddits, tumblrs and scuttlebutt thrown around. I think people start to realize we need positive ideas for future. Solarpunk is future where we make it, clean energy wins, automation will empower us instead of enslaving us. Maybe its time for some of that.

I could see that working.

Maybe the problem is that the current visions for a utopian future aren't inspiring.

In other sci-fi you strap on a badass lightsaber/phaser/gun jump in your spaceship/mecha/Mad Max Muscle Car, and live by your own rules.

In modern utopianism, private ownership of weapons is banned, everyone uses public transportation, everyone's vegan, etc. (I realize this is a bit of a stereotype, but I'm just trying to generalize/exaggerate to illustrate what I mean.)

I'm not trying to say that futurists do something like militarize their vision of the future in order to be cool, but I do think they need to figure out a way to present a future that is compelling.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#79

Post by eli_gottlieb »

moonhorse wrote: post #74
taneq wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More generally, we have a decided lack of novels describing a better future. Maybe that's because it's hard to be optimistic about the future starting from now? The worst case is that the environment goes to hell and we die, or the economy crashes and life becomes hell, or killer robots kill us all (at the behest of some state actor or just because they loooove paperclips). The best case is we get humans to not beh…

I’m not sure why we need to be sarcastic about a future in which “we upgrade ourselves into transhuman”. There is nothing special about “humanity”. Emotions are likely result of chemicals. We will transform ourselves and what those beings feel most likely will not resemble what we feel today. They will have their culture and art and they will not care about ours at all. It is inevitable if there is no disastrous even…

>Emotions are likely result of chemicals.

Your entire brain is the result of chemicals. Emotions, as such, are a result of your interoceptive cortical systems.

Re: How Dystopian Fiction Shapes Political Attitudes

#80

Post by ctchocula »

wtracy wrote: post #25
nreilly wrote: post #18

Is anyone aware of any good utopian fiction?

I would argue that the main reason Star Trek has had such enduring popularity in spite of its failings is that it is a rare example of utopian science fiction in television. (Deep Space 9 took a dystopian detour by focusing on several alien societies that were held up as "bad" examples. I'm also withholding judgement on Star Trek Discovery.) As for written science fiction, I really can't think of anything recent othe…

Trekonomics is a nice non-fiction book about the utopian ideas presented in Star Trek and especially TNG. It talks about Gene Roddenberry's ideals for a better future once post-scarcity (symbolized by the replicator) has been reached. In the Federation, there is no poverty and no one spends their life hoarding wealth other than the Ferengi.

The show presents a clear answer to a popular criticism to UBI: what is to prevent everyone from staying home to play video games and leeching off society?

The optimistic answer is that once society can produce enough goods for everyone, the traditional value system of society (material wealth => proxy for contributions to society => virtue) loses meaning and will be overtaken by new ones (contributing to society => virtue). Of course in the Star Trek universe, they only got there after nuclear apocalypse (WW3) and rebuilding society, but the value system is appealing and IMO something we ought to strive for.

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