Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students • Hacker News Board

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#201

Post by BugsJustFindMe » Thu, Nov 29, 2018, 2:44 PM UTC

skywhopper wrote: post #176

This strikes me as a very whiny article, not worthy of publishing in the Chronicle. A lifetime of hurt feelings and resentments bubbling up into a rant full of straw men and frankly irresponsible misinformation about the role student evaluations play in instructor assessment. It’s too bad, too, because there certainly are criticisms to be made, and this article hints at some of them. But a well designed evaluation in…

> a well designed evaluation instrument along with critical interpretation of the results and comments can be an invaluable tool for instructors who want to improve their teaching.

An instructor who actually wants to improve their teaching solicits and engages with feedback from the very first day of the term and doesn't wait until end of term evaluations roll in. Why? Because end of term evaluations, by definition, cannot help the students who wrote them.

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#202

Post by jcagalawan » Thu, Nov 29, 2018, 2:51 PM UTC

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #130

wisty wrote: post #118

There's a much better way to hold educators to account - have other educators sit in on classes. But this is often very strongly resisted, apparently it's 'unprofessional'.

I'd be curious to hear who thinks this is unprofessional. Not any educators I know.

While I can't find any specific sources in the field of education, I was taught in engineering school that engineers reviewing the work of another engineer, unless their job specifically required them to review work, was against the code of ethics in Ontario. It looks like this is true as well in the USA which has this tidbit in their code of ethics.[1]

"a. An Engineer in private practice will not review the work of another engineer for the same client, except with the knowledge of such engineer, or unless the connection of such engineer with the work has been terminated."

[1]http://ethics.iit.edu/ecodes/node/4099

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#203

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 29, 2018, 3:00 PM UTC

bocklund wrote: post #90

Y7ZCQtNo39 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few professors are granted tenure, as was the case in the past. It's weakly non-zero: times have changed. There are far more adjunct professors today. Universities are more run like businesses than in decades past.

I don’t have data, but I think most tenure track professors get tenure (if not at their current university, than another). Adjunct professors are not tenure track, so there is really no expectation that they would get tenure. Though I have seen the numbers that say the number of adjuncts is increasing.

[deleted]

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#204

Post by chuckgreenman » Thu, Nov 29, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #198

chuckgreenman wrote: post #197

Sure, evalutations are flawed, but it appears that universities are unable or unwilling to develop other quality measures. For example, this semester I've had a networking professor that would get half way into explaining something interesting and then state that he didn't care about the topic so he didn't prepare to talk about it and we'd be moving on to something else. I've got an A in that class, but I wouldn't sa…

Right. I think anybody reading comments in these review sites can see if students are ranking professors well for being "easy" or if they're ranking them well for being great educators. The universities I went to for my undergrad and graduate programs both had an informal rating system for professors and I definitely encountered some of both. One of the most highly rated professors I encountered was also one of the b…

I got the impression that the author was talking about department run evaluation sheets rather than review sites. Student evaluations shouldn't be seen as an evaluation metric but a smoke detector that indicates a staff member might need some more direction.

Teaching is an art, just because someone isn't doing it well doesn't mean they can't do it well. In fact in some cases I imagine they are doing poorly because they would rather be working on their research area. Providing the opportunity to course correct rather than starve out is good.

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#205

Post by afarrell » Thu, Nov 29, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #201

skywhopper wrote: post #176

This strikes me as a very whiny article, not worthy of publishing in the Chronicle. A lifetime of hurt feelings and resentments bubbling up into a rant full of straw men and frankly irresponsible misinformation about the role student evaluations play in instructor assessment. It’s too bad, too, because there certainly are criticisms to be made, and this article hints at some of them. But a well designed evaluation in…

> a well designed evaluation instrument along with critical interpretation of the results and comments can be an invaluable tool for instructors who want to improve their teaching. An instructor who actually wants to improve their teaching solicits and engages with feedback from the very first day of the term and doesn't wait until end of term evaluations roll in. Why? Because end of term evaluations, by definition,…

nitpick: An instructor may genuinely want to improve their teaching but may only think to solicit feedback until the end of term or may default to end-of-term evals because they do not have a go-to system for soliciting feedback iteratively.

(Unless you define "want" as "what the behavior of this system would lead to" and thereby pretend that no human act is an error)

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#206

Post by chithanh » Thu, Nov 29, 2018, 3:21 PM UTC

ergothus wrote: post #103

flashman wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as students are graded on their studying skills, I feel like teachers should be graded every fews years on their teaching skills If a teacher grades a student poorly, there can be repercussions. They have an incentive to grade fairly and accurately. The same isn't true of students, who can grade on feelings and grudges. Teachers are also subject matter experts in the material being graded. Students aren't trained a…

> If a teacher grades a student poorly, there can be repercussions. Yes, but the above poster was talking about TEACHING poorly. It is easy enough to expect students to know things at the end of class, but harder to be of use in them learning that material. > Teachers are also subject matter experts in the material being graded. Some are. Maybe even most. But definitely not a universally true statement, particularly…

>> Teachers are also subject matter experts in the material being graded.

> Some are. Maybe even most. But definitely not a universally true statement, particularly in areas where teacher pay is dramatically out of line with industry wages.

So you say that if we find out which teachers are incompetent and actually kick them out, we would need to raise teacher wages to the point of being competitive with the industry?

Sounds like a win-win to me.

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#207

Post by cyberpanther » Thu, Nov 29, 2018, 3:30 PM UTC

This is also a problem with developer bootcamps since they get a lot of "sales" from reviews. They can often cater to students to the detriment of the learning experience. At times it is about catering to creature comforts, but can bleed over into lessening the learning experience.

And especially in bootcamps since things are so fast paced and often times emotional, the reviews are not objective. Many are too positive or too negative.

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#208

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Thu, Nov 29, 2018, 3:45 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #200

weliketocode wrote: post #187

Let me a add a wrinkle to the mix specifically in terms of grade inflation. The value of most coursework and any learnings gleaned from it, has dropped significantly. The best value from entering education institutions is instead from job opportunities after. Unfortunately, these opportunities are often based on grades. If the grades are more important than the coursework, then of course students will optimize for it…

The grading just gets kicked down the road. Now, because we don't trust your credentials, we give you a coding exam, that is effectively a grade. Likewise, an open secret is that college work is a simulation of the workplace. Those college students who develop through practice the ability to turn in work on time that makes their teachers happy, will also be able to do the same in the workplace. If you give up the cha…

> Likewise, an open secret is that college work is a simulation of the workplace.

I don't think this is the case, and hasn't been for a long time. Assuming you're not looking at graduate classes college is largely a game of keeping your head down and doing the work you need to when you need to and the minimizing effort other than that. Cramming is totally a viable option as the metrics for success in college are totally different than the workplace. The skills one learns to survive in college are extremely maladaptive to a long term functional career.

If the criteria for success are orthogonal, how can one be a simulation of the other?

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#209

Post by quacked » Thu, Nov 29, 2018, 3:59 PM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #194

weliketocode wrote: post #187

Let me a add a wrinkle to the mix specifically in terms of grade inflation. The value of most coursework and any learnings gleaned from it, has dropped significantly. The best value from entering education institutions is instead from job opportunities after. Unfortunately, these opportunities are often based on grades. If the grades are more important than the coursework, then of course students will optimize for it…

I think you'll come to regret this attitude when you reach your mid-30s with no skills other than the concrete procedural skills you picked up on the job. I use my education constantly, and in ways I wouldn't have anticipated. I often see people doing things the hard way because they don't know there's any other way, or passing on opportunities to do something interesting because they don't realize it's even possible…

The comment you're responding to isn't an attitude that the poster has, it's an explanation of how students are responding to changes in incentives.

As the total number of college graduates grows, they're competing in job markets that are smaller than the total number of college graduates. This ratio is unbalanced and becoming more unbalanced with every year. The people hiring college graduates are developing stricter and stricter filters in order to decide what body of people they're even going to allow to compete in the job market; the biggest, easiest filter to sort out who's truly competitive for positions is grades, and so it makes sense that students compete to get the best grades. rather than competing to be the most competent.

Most grads are leaving college in tremendous debt with the understanding that the longer they go without employment, the less likely it is they'll end up employed. This means that while they're in college, rather than focusing on the material they're learning, they're focusing on whatever will allow them to have the largest advantage when they enter the job market. In order for this trend to reverse, the cost of college needs to be dramatically lessened; I think this could be accomplished by reducing the total percentage of high school graduates that attend college immediately, increasing the prevalence of online schools, and reducing university overhead by cutting services to students and administrative positions.

Re: Students Evaluating Teachers Doesn’t Just Hurt Teachers, It Hurts Students

#210

Post by newen » Thu, Nov 29, 2018, 4:29 PM UTC

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #201

skywhopper wrote: post #176

This strikes me as a very whiny article, not worthy of publishing in the Chronicle. A lifetime of hurt feelings and resentments bubbling up into a rant full of straw men and frankly irresponsible misinformation about the role student evaluations play in instructor assessment. It’s too bad, too, because there certainly are criticisms to be made, and this article hints at some of them. But a well designed evaluation in…

> a well designed evaluation instrument along with critical interpretation of the results and comments can be an invaluable tool for instructors who want to improve their teaching. An instructor who actually wants to improve their teaching solicits and engages with feedback from the very first day of the term and doesn't wait until end of term evaluations roll in. Why? Because end of term evaluations, by definition,…

That's not easy at all. Instructors design their course typically before the first class starts. Trying to incorporate suggestions from students -- students who have no experience teaching -- is just going to lead to disaster.