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Magnus Carlsen Beats Fabiano Caruana to Win World Chess Championship

nytimes.com

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Re: Magnus Carlsen Beats Fabiano Caruana to Win World Chess Championship

#161

Post by Retra »

mindgam3 wrote: post #127
whymauri wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling the series "marred" feels a little dramatic.

The fact is that all of the major coverage of this event is going to inevitably mention game 12 as much as the final result. Perhaps "marred" is a bit too strong. Could we at least agree on "besmirched"? Here's the first paragraph from LiChess coverage: 'It is not often that the chess world unites to criticise Magnus Carlsen, but on Monday evening in London the World Champion had few supporters after his decision to…

People who make their livelihood on the back of a sport don't really have any incentive to not be overly dramatic during the big game. Any promoter will want people's eyes on the game. Controversy does that. Carlson's draw offer did that, and so did all the criticism of it.

Not that I'm being cynical about it... nobody wants to be a champion that nobody remembers. Especially not in an age where computers consistently outplay humans.

Re: Magnus Carlsen Beats Fabiano Caruana to Win World Chess Championship

#162

Post by Retra »

gpm wrote: post #157
enneff wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand how the prize money is allocated. They both got 400k for competing, and the winner would take 200k. Since they went to tiebreaks the winner only got 150k while the loser gets 50k. So in this sense Magnus didn’t really split much of the prize with Caruana.

They both get paid 400k for competing. That's payment, and maybe a prize for reaching the championship, but not a prize for the winner of the championship, so I ignore it. The winner gets 200k in prize money. In the case of a tie the winner gets 150k, the loser gets 50k. That is to say the winner gets 100k, and they split 100k, which is half the prize, which is what I said.

Perhaps Carlson was just being generous to his opponent then. Surely a nefarious deed.

Re: Magnus Carlsen Beats Fabiano Caruana to Win World Chess Championship

#163

Post by hnuser1234 »

mindgam3 wrote: post #135
michalu wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a good point, but I don't think he's playing for hearts. They play for money and recognition in the first place. Every sportsman who experienced a failure (and we all have) knows very well that while you're applauded at the top the moment you lose many, including your fans will suddenly rejoice ... sometimes you even get some "kicks while on the ground." About the Grischuk and Kasparov quote, it turns out I…

I can't argue with your logic here. We do live in a world where people say winning isn't everything. But actually, it is. It's not just happening in chess. This is the same "win at all costs" mentality that gave us the wonders of "growth hacking" i.e. unethical behavior that becomes glorified in Silicon Valley, because it works. I don't mean to get all Ghandi-like on you, but I do want to ask you sincerely - what kin…

I don't see any moral failings in trying to win a game at all costs.

Re: Magnus Carlsen Beats Fabiano Caruana to Win World Chess Championship

#164

Post by enneff »

gpm wrote: post #157
enneff wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand how the prize money is allocated. They both got 400k for competing, and the winner would take 200k. Since they went to tiebreaks the winner only got 150k while the loser gets 50k. So in this sense Magnus didn’t really split much of the prize with Caruana.

They both get paid 400k for competing. That's payment, and maybe a prize for reaching the championship, but not a prize for the winner of the championship, so I ignore it. The winner gets 200k in prize money. In the case of a tie the winner gets 150k, the loser gets 50k. That is to say the winner gets 100k, and they split 100k, which is half the prize, which is what I said.

My apologies, I misread your original comment.

In any case, Carlsen said he wasn't aware of the prize money difference after reaching tie breakers, so it probably didn't factor into his decision making.

Re: Magnus Carlsen Beats Fabiano Caruana to Win World Chess Championship

#165

Post by ubernostrum »

sytelus wrote: post #122
michalu wrote: post #106

In the end, Carlsen is the man who knows the best how to win in chess. Regardless of all critics. He played the 12th game safe knowing he's a huge favourite in rapid and blitz. Like Kasparov and Grischuk pointed out today, every other chess player gets worse playing rapid/blitz but Carlsen is the only one who actually improves. Under these conditions it's more than sensible to move into the terrain where you have an…

This is quite funny thread. I often marvel at folks dissecting sport game outcome for hours retrospectively as if everything was perfectly explainable only after outcome was seen. We don't see this in HN threads much - well, except for chess games :). In reality, pro games have such strong contenders that each have very thin edge, if at all, and the outcome is usually just same as throwing dice.

In the US, the major team sports are not at all "very thin edge". In fact, lack of parity is a real issue facing several leagues.

Between "tanking" (teams that are deliberately bad in order to get better draft picks), massive budget differences (it's not unusual to see large-market teams with payrolls more than double those of small-market teams), and structural issues in the games themselves, parity can be very very difficult to achieve. 538 attempts to use chess-style Elo ratings to track the major sports, and currently they have:

* ~200-point difference between best and worst major-league baseball team

* ~400-point difference between best and worst NFL football team

* ~400-point difference between best and worst NBA basketball team

Re: Magnus Carlsen Beats Fabiano Caruana to Win World Chess Championship

#166

Post by sb8244 »

shaklee3 wrote: post #160
mindgam3 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't argue with your first premise. Your following points, however, are less convincing. "Like Kasparov and Grischuk pointed out today, every other chess player gets worse playing rapid/blitz but Carlsen is the only one who actually improves." Even if Kasparov and Grischuk said this today (citation please?), it doesn't make it true. There are many players who get better playing rapid and blitz. Look at the traject…

Can you explain this more to someone not knowledgeable about these tournaments? What did he do that was unconventional?

Carlsen was in a better position in both time and pieces on the board (he had a higher chance of winning). However, he offered a draw to cause all 12 games of classical as a draw.

The point that others here are making is that Carlsen is objectively better at blitz chess, which is what the tiebreakers are formatted in.

Re: Magnus Carlsen Beats Fabiano Caruana to Win World Chess Championship

#167

Post by WhompingWindows »

waterpigcow wrote: post #140
maaaats wrote: post #116

I'd wager 20% of Norway or more has been actively following these games. Everyone has been talking about it, the last few weeks the lunch at work has been mostly discussing the game the night before. All over the media. Biggest tv channel (NRK) showed the 15 games live, same for the biggest news page (VG) . And this is nothing new, ever since the first time Carlsen was in a WC match Norway has been obsessed with ches…

I expected it to be the same in America, unfortunately this was not the case. I don't know what it is but nobody in my social circles seemed to even know that this was going on.

Wow, that's shocking. How could you expect it to be that way in America? Have you looked around at actual Americans and what they watch??

Re: Magnus Carlsen Beats Fabiano Caruana to Win World Chess Championship

#168

Post by WhompingWindows »

drewrv wrote: post #12
DrNuke wrote: post #2

Why don’t start with Armageddon next time, to spice things up for the classic format games?

I've heard similar proposals for soccer games, start with penalty kicks as a tiebreaker. Now, whomever lost the tiebreaker will have to play extra hard as they know a draw will be a loss.

Soccer just needs to remove players as time increases. It'll create odd exciting scrappy scenarios, but goal scoring will certainly be more likely.

Re: Magnus Carlsen Beats Fabiano Caruana to Win World Chess Championship

#169

Post by chasontherobot »

gpm wrote: post #157
enneff wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand how the prize money is allocated. They both got 400k for competing, and the winner would take 200k. Since they went to tiebreaks the winner only got 150k while the loser gets 50k. So in this sense Magnus didn’t really split much of the prize with Caruana.

They both get paid 400k for competing. That's payment, and maybe a prize for reaching the championship, but not a prize for the winner of the championship, so I ignore it. The winner gets 200k in prize money. In the case of a tie the winner gets 150k, the loser gets 50k. That is to say the winner gets 100k, and they split 100k, which is half the prize, which is what I said.

> In the case of a tie the winner gets 150k, the loser gets 50k.

this literally makes no sense. In a tie, there is no winner and no loser. There was a winner and loser in this case, so there was no tie. I don't know why you keep insisting there was.

Re: Magnus Carlsen Beats Fabiano Caruana to Win World Chess Championship

#170

Post by thrower123 »

waterpigcow wrote: post #140
maaaats wrote: post #116

I'd wager 20% of Norway or more has been actively following these games. Everyone has been talking about it, the last few weeks the lunch at work has been mostly discussing the game the night before. All over the media. Biggest tv channel (NRK) showed the 15 games live, same for the biggest news page (VG) . And this is nothing new, ever since the first time Carlsen was in a WC match Norway has been obsessed with ches…

I expected it to be the same in America, unfortunately this was not the case. I don't know what it is but nobody in my social circles seemed to even know that this was going on.

Chess is just not that popular outside of a few niches here. I used to be really into it when I was a kid, but it's a struggle to find anyone to play against; I don't think I've played more than a couple games in the past five years.
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