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I still miss my headphone jack, and I want it back

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Re: I still miss my headphone jack, and I want it back

#721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Audio and display lag in rhythm video games is a 100% solvable problem provided: 1. The amount of lag is consistent (check, as long as you're not using Bluetooth) 2. The game is not key-sounded (pass for DDR) 3. You know how much lag there is. Since rhythm games are deterministic, you can just offset the visuals and audio output to compensate for the delay. Keysounded games are imperfect, but it's rarely an issue unl…

Interesting. You'd think HDMI would be able to use ARC to send a signal back, since the TV would know the exact moment it is displaying the image.

You could also solve the problem with a hardware database. For instance, I know my projector is delayed by 22ms because multiple reviews mentioned it, so that's the value I use in Project Diva. You can't find this info for most TV's.

Unfortunately, no one with the resources to really tackle this problem seems to care enough to do it.

I should also note that what many games do do is offer some type of user calibration, ie, press the notes with as good timing as you can manage, and we'll assume the average is the amount of delay in your setup. This kind of works sometimes, but it's imperfect for obvious reasons.

Re: I still miss my headphone jack, and I want it back

#722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I am in a few years nearing 40, and I remembered when I first used a bluetooth headset, it was like seventeen years ago, so I was in my early 20s Though it was (a tiny bit) more "magical" back then, pairing devices sucked then and still sucks. Has anything even changed with how Bluetooth works? Cause I keep giving Bluetooth new chances, "well it's X years later, and it still exists, surely they must have found a w…

I don't remember the transition from serial cables to USB being as bad. Yes, you needed adapters or new hardware, but USB has always "just worked". There are corner cases and limitations to it, of course, but USB was never (at least in my experience) anywhere near the headache that Bluetooth was... and still often is. I use Bluetooth, and in most cases I even like it, but it's still way more of a hassle than it shoul…

> USB has always "just worked"

I remember plenty of issues with USB device compatibility. Mostly when someone failed to follow the standards, of course—fully compliant devices and host controllers have generally worked well together, at least since USB 1.1. But there are a lot of non-compliant devices out there. Bluetooth isn't much different in that regard: if both devices follow the spec it tends to work well, but it's much more likely that one or both of the devices takes a "shortcut" or two in the name of saving a few cents. The fact that Bluetooth devices are typically battery-powered and thus strongly incentivised to cut corners to save a few milliwatts doesn't help.

However, the standards certainly aren't perfect even when implemented correctly. The most awkward aspect of the Bluetooth experience, in my opinion, has to do with pairing. There shouldn't by any limit to the number of simultaneously paired devices. They should just exchange signed credentials during the pairing process, and either device (but typically the more general-purpose one, such as the phone or laptop) should be able to present these pairing credentials later to establish a connection. The headphones, car stereo, or other special-purpose, storage-limited device shouldn't need to remember anything about the devices permitted to connect.

Re: I still miss my headphone jack, and I want it back

#723
post #717
post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought one and put it on the end of a headphone cable and left it there. I’m not sure what the massive inconvenience is here.

That works but that is just one very very narrow use case. There are tons of situations when that won't help you. And that's even if you only use one pair of headphones.

I have AirPods for meetings and music while walking, the normal Apple buds - now just backup in case I leave my AirPods behind, some Sony closed back monsters for shutting out noise while working in cafes and some nice open back Grados for music listening at home.

I hardly use the Sonys but if I do, I will just borrow the adaptor from my Apple buds in my laptop bag. For listening to my Grados I use an amp with a headphone socket.

If I wanted to plug them into my phone I would need the Apple lightning adapter and also one to the smaller headphone jack! This doesn’t bother me. If I want to do that, I’ll just do it.

I’ll even spend another £9 on an adapter to leave connected if I do it often enough.

None of this seems terrible to me and I’m not sure how unique this set of circumstances is. What are the tons of situations where this gets tricky?

Re: I still miss my headphone jack, and I want it back

#724
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What charges the case? No need for a phone that requires an adapter. There are great phones that drive all audio gear nicely. Those phones will win in the market too. Cost / benefit ratio is more favorable. Has been, will continue to be, and that will be true because digital audio does nothing new. Video does! We have great reasons for DV. Those do not apply to audio. Ears are not like eyes.

> No need for a phone that requires an adapter. There are great phones that drive all audio gear nicely. Those phones will win in the market too. Why do you say they'll win?

Late, but I ran into "posting too fast", which can be frustrating at times when a discussion is good enough to warrant more participation, but I digress.

I said it in my comment(s) above.

Video, for example, works differently than audio does. Digital video brings advantages that generally outweigh costs in the majority of use cases. Analog video, like audio, does take fewer resources and can still be indicated for projects, depending.

For ordinary consumers, DV is a general win. They will move willingly and their older gear will age out and become not so useful.

DA is not a general win. Their gear will not age out, will not become less useful, etc... Unless that is artificial!

And that is exactly why "no headphone jack" is so contentious right now! Most forced migrations make sense. This one really doesn't, and it's due to the nature of audio, existing gear investments, and the fact that going digital really doesn't get a person anything new.

Above that we've got some real spiffy bits. No wires is probably the best of the lot. That's a win, but the cost of it, when one is forced to adopt only a digital path is much higher than it needs to be and everyone knows it.

Should the entire electronics industry abandon analog audio, there will be startups who embrace it. 70's era gear remains entirely relevant. And it will, again, unless forced artificially.

70's era video is marginally relevant. NTSC / PAL at SD resolutions, and on analog gear, have a few sweet spots left, but for almost everyone, using that gear does not make too much sense today.

This is absolutely HUGE.

Put another way, the winners from "no headphone jack" are largely the people not wanting to include a headphone jack. Ordinary people can get all the spiffy stuff and abandon analog as they see fit without ever being required to do or spend on things having basically no value.

I don't get anything new, and my personal cost and risk exposure related to audio goes up! And this is true for very large numbers of people.

That's a losing proposition.

I just happened to think of a great parallel: HD Radio. It's got some nice advantages, but basically does nothing new, and it does so at a very significant cost to everyone.

Said that one would fail, and it basically has. Nobody needs digital radio, and what they failed to understand was that (due to commercials and other annoyances already impacting radio), and how people use radios, and the value of the installed base of radios out there now.

Right now, if you get one of those expensive radios, there are literally give away stations, no commercials! That's how poorly the dynamics surrounding radio are understood by the bigger players. They can't give it away!

I know I would not take a free phone, sans the jack. It's way too much of a hassle to be outside a production proven, time tested, high value, audio ecosystem.

These are all reasons why people who don't really get how their customers do things are going to lose in the marketplace.

Heck, I have not even read a single reason why it has to be done!

Big content wants it, because piracy. (laughable at this point, and that's no joke)

Apple wants it, Google probably wants it, because friendly to big content, also up selling, accessory replacement selling.

Samsung shows us it's entirely possible to make an awesome phone with the jack in it. I own one, and it is actually an awesome phone. Apple has nothing on my Note 8. (But I do love Apple's approach to user data security / privacy.)

There just isn't any value added here. Worse, the cost "savings" from removing the jack is what? $50 bucks tops?

How much do adapters, new earbuds, and related bits cost over the life of the phone? What about a person's time, existing knowledge, investments in gear?

Losing proposition across the board. Again, that's why I do not see a win on this.

Re: I still miss my headphone jack, and I want it back

#725
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, let me just throw out the hundreds of dollars worth of apps, not to mention the rest of my investment in the ecosystem, because I might have to buy, once, an adapter that costs 1% of the sticker price of the phone and can just be permanently left attached. “Easy”.

So Apple is effectively holding you hostage.

Not any more than I'd be held hostage to the Android ecosystem after having bought hundreds of dollars of worth of apps.

Re: I still miss my headphone jack, and I want it back

#726
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Apple is effectively holding you hostage.

Not any more than I'd be held hostage to the Android ecosystem after having bought hundreds of dollars of worth of apps.

Well, no.

You can get great Android devices with headphone jacks.

Re: I still miss my headphone jack, and I want it back

#727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, let me just throw out the hundreds of dollars worth of apps, not to mention the rest of my investment in the ecosystem, because I might have to buy, once, an adapter that costs 1% of the sticker price of the phone and can just be permanently left attached. “Easy”.

Saw that coming a mile away. I won't use an Apple phone. Never would, probably never will. We had this whole lock in discussion in the 90's. Got my first Linux distribution back then. Red Hat 5.2 in the nice box. That investment has paid and paid and paid... I like some Mac computers a lot. Happy customer. 2012 Mac Book Pro is a sweeet machine! Has all the ports, is plenty fast, sexy. No, I don't run iTunes and frien…

I'm happy for you, but please don't assume your desires and motivations are the same as mine. I'm happier with my Mac and iPhone than I ever was running Debian for over a decade, and the headphone jack is a complete non-issue for me since I use Bluetooth headphones.

I'm sure the millions of happy iPad owners would be thrilled to hear you categorize the device as a toddler learning tool.

I'm completely bewildered by your position that a lightning-to-audio-jack dongle is somehow a big deal, given that when it's plugged in it's virtually indistinguishable from the cable you would have plugged into an audio jack anyway. The white cord attaching my headphones is a full inch and a half longer than it otherwise would be, what a horror!

And finally, I'm no more locked in to the Apple ecosystem than I would be to any other ecosystem—Windows-based or Linux-based—that I switched to, over time. It's irrelevant to me if one platform is "open" if I wouldn't be happy with the software available on that platform. I used Linux as my sole environment for something like fifteen years. Been there, done that, happier on a Mac nowadays.

But thanks for your overly-parental concern.

Re: I still miss my headphone jack, and I want it back

#728
post #723
post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That works but that is just one very very narrow use case. There are tons of situations when that won't help you. And that's even if you only use one pair of headphones.

I have AirPods for meetings and music while walking, the normal Apple buds - now just backup in case I leave my AirPods behind, some Sony closed back monsters for shutting out noise while working in cafes and some nice open back Grados for music listening at home. I hardly use the Sonys but if I do, I will just borrow the adaptor from my Apple buds in my laptop bag. For listening to my Grados I use an amp with a head…

Get into a friends car which only have aux input, try to connect to an older receiver, tv, boombox or computer speakers. I do this almost daily, so i have to loose several posibilities for the added convenience of what exactly?

Re: I still miss my headphone jack, and I want it back

#729
post #711
post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's weird, it took me half a year (commuting daily) to go from "carrying phone in jeans' back pocket is practical" to "I have to take out phone from the pocket _every time_ before I sit". No problems ever since. But I guess I learn fast ... Unless it's setting up some wireless crap.

Hey that's great. You know what? With the wireless earbuds, I never have to think about that again. I can throw my phone in my pocket, any pocket, and leave it there while I get crammed into a metro car. So, I guess there are tradeoffs -- and fixing pairing means everyone can enjoy freedom from one more wire, while keeping on using a wire means we keep adapting our behaviors around a wire.

Don't forget that you can still have a headphone jack AND bluetooth, the problem here is the removal of one as i'm sure many people would be mad if nex gen phones would dump bluetooth and use wired-only audio.

Re: I still miss my headphone jack, and I want it back

#730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saw that coming a mile away. I won't use an Apple phone. Never would, probably never will. We had this whole lock in discussion in the 90's. Got my first Linux distribution back then. Red Hat 5.2 in the nice box. That investment has paid and paid and paid... I like some Mac computers a lot. Happy customer. 2012 Mac Book Pro is a sweeet machine! Has all the ports, is plenty fast, sexy. No, I don't run iTunes and frien…

I'm happy for you, but please don't assume your desires and motivations are the same as mine. I'm happier with my Mac and iPhone than I ever was running Debian for over a decade, and the headphone jack is a complete non-issue for me since I use Bluetooth headphones. I'm sure the millions of happy iPad owners would be thrilled to hear you categorize the device as a toddler learning tool. I'm completely bewildered by y…

It's not concern, just straight up anti-lock in advocacy. Written for anyone, including you, passing by.

Any happy iPad owners, and I am a happy iPad owner mind you, can and should be perfectly secure in all of that, not concerned at all about how I, again a happy iPad owner, happen to use my iPad. And my primary use case happens to be all the throw away, non-serious use cases.

It's a dongle. It is completely unnecessary. Lots of people do not mind unnecessary encumbrances. One of the more frequently seen scenarios is expression of style.

I am just not one of those people, and I'm gonna pass completely on weak sauce marginalization of so many other great points made, other than I suspect they don't apply in your case, and you are about you. Fair enough.

You and I run about the same on general computing. I run a mix, love Macs that have actual ports on them, the same going for Win 10, 7 and Linux. And I run a mix of open and closed software too. The point being to be happy, while avoiding lock in that could be harmful.

In a pinch, I can drop pretty much any software I use, get the necessary data out of it, and into something else with few worries. That's the open data, open computing, anti-lock in discussion in play. No need to be a purist or zealot.

What that means is this:

I really loved the Mac Book with ports. The current ones? Laughable. Won't recommend, nor purchase. That could change, say when I see some ports again. Or not. Being a happy customer when I can be happy as a customer is my point in all of this exactly.

Apple got me to buy a Mac. Then they fucked way up. I won't buy another one right now, and because I do manage data, software, all that stuff, nothing really lost, other than my business for Apple. Lots of options out there, and I went Lenovo. Good to go. Always will be.

And later, I may well pick up a Dell. Who knows? I'm not locked in, get to evaluate my use cases, product features, and make selections rather freely. And that's what I really like to empower people to do.

Really, I do not need, nor want your thanks. I'll just ignore that bit and stay laser focused on the forced non-choice Apple thinks is better for it's users than it really is for very large numbers of it's users right now. Ideally, Apple cleans that right up, and it's all good.

...until it isn't, which again, is exactly why lock in is to be avoided.

Already helped a few people move off Apple phones and out of that eco-system. Likely to get more. No worries.

Cheers.

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