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Boring Co. Drops LA Westside Tunnel Plan

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Re: Boring Co. Drops LA Westside Tunnel Plan

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes? i don't own the prismatic wedge of land that extends all the way to the core of the Earth afaik

Why wouldn't you?

You don't own the airspace over your house (over some minimum altitude), why would you own the land under your house (below some minimum depth). I would have absolutely no problem with a tunnel running 20m--or whatever the safe, silent amount is--underneath my house.

Re: Boring Co. Drops LA Westside Tunnel Plan

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But unless you’re going to the same destination mass transit isn’t ideal. If there are enough shared routes, and the cost advantage of shared transportation add up to a big enough benefit than it works. But my ideal transport is teleporting, which I think a subterranean hyperloop pod is closer to.

The concept of Loop is basically yet-another-repackaging of personal rapid transit. And the operational history of personal rapid transit has essentially shown that it sounds good in theory but doesn't work that well in practice. The real problem is that the suburban ideal of detached single-family homes combined with low-density commercial parks is not an environmentally-friendly way of living, and when you try to s…

If personal rapid transit did work it would be better than a mass transit alternative. But I think it's pretty clear that surface streets and cars won't do this.

Re: Boring Co. Drops LA Westside Tunnel Plan

#163
Yes/no decisions on the basis of environmental impact lead to excess risk aversion, sloppy thinking, and ultimately, technological stagnation. While I agree that we should consider the environment in project planning, the proper way to do that is to use the price mechanism to account for environmental damage.

That is, the output of environmental review should never be "no". It should be "the environmental cost of this project is $X billion, and here's a breakdown". Forcing people to quantify their objections will lead to a more honest evaluation of the options.

Re: Boring Co. Drops LA Westside Tunnel Plan

#164
post #19

It seems sort of shortsighted to block a tunneling company on environmental grounds. In the long term, cheap tunneling would be fantastic for the environment. Most of what we consider the biosphere is on the surface, and to the extent that there's life in the tunneled area, by volume tunneling isn't going to be significant for a long time. (Volume is much larger than surface; in general, areal intuition fails miserab…

They didn't block it on any known Environmental grounds, CEQA exists to insure major infrastructure projects evaluate many options and attempt to find the most environmentally friendly option. In this particular case, it was almost certainly not building a low capacity tunnel for small vehicles and cars, but to build the already planned metro rail line without having to add engineering complexity to maneuver around a…

> In this particular case, it was almost certainly not building a low capacity tunnel for small vehicles and cars, but to build the already planned metro rail line without having to add engineering complexity to maneuver around a privately owned and built tunnel.

A metro rail line can't transport a car, so point-to-point transit is out, as is any semblance of privacy. Why are you so quick to devalue these advantages?

If Musk can build a tunnel profitably, he should be able to do it, even if the opinion of people like you, mass transit would be preferable. Musk isn't willing to fund mass transit, but he is willing to fund a tunnel, so all you get by blocking the tunnel is neither mass transit nor a tunnel. Congratulations!

Re: Boring Co. Drops LA Westside Tunnel Plan

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't block it on any known Environmental grounds, CEQA exists to insure major infrastructure projects evaluate many options and attempt to find the most environmentally friendly option. In this particular case, it was almost certainly not building a low capacity tunnel for small vehicles and cars, but to build the already planned metro rail line without having to add engineering complexity to maneuver around a…

> In this particular case, it was almost certainly not building a low capacity tunnel for small vehicles and cars, but to build the already planned metro rail line without having to add engineering complexity to maneuver around a privately owned and built tunnel. A metro rail line can't transport a car, so point-to-point transit is out, as is any semblance of privacy. Why are you so quick to devalue these advantages?…

He can’t build it profitably, or at least without going through the environmental impact review that every other project of this scale must pass. Do you really think the hole digging is the bottleneck for every other underground project?

Re: Boring Co. Drops LA Westside Tunnel Plan

#166

Why doesn't Musk take his business elsewhere where he's welcome? I can imagine LA being a nightmare for this sort of project. He needs a place where bureaucracy is thinner and people are actually excited about everything new.

LA is excited about many things, but a pointless tunnel to nowhere that can't fit any reasonable amount of traffic while permanently forestalling any options that could--that's the kind of boondoggle that people get excited to oppose. Elon's still proposing to build a Dodger Stadium tunnel. While similarly pointless from a traffic perspective (a single bus would get more people to the game in 20 minutes than the proposed Loop system would in an hour), it at least has the possible use of being a tourist destination and justifying its existence in that fashion. (And due to the nature of the geology between the proposed end points, a mass transit rail option of the scale Metro normally operates on that pathway is unfeasible.)

Re: Boring Co. Drops LA Westside Tunnel Plan

#167
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musk says a lot of things. He is really amazing at getting press attention for himself. Ask Buffalo how Musk promises regarding the solar roof factory have gone so far...

Ahead of the job numbers he promised https://www.wgrz.com/mobile/article/news/tesla-shares-new-jo... . I will say that project is going very well.

Per your own link, Tesla has not yet satisfied the requirement. Tesla needs to hire 500 workers by April 2019, and so far has only hired 400. The other 400 were hired by Panasonic and don't get counted towards Tesla's total. Based on the abysmal/lack of solarroof sales in the past year, it's unlikely they'll need 100 new workers in the next 5 months.

Re: Boring Co. Drops LA Westside Tunnel Plan

#168
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In this particular case, it was almost certainly not building a low capacity tunnel for small vehicles and cars, but to build the already planned metro rail line without having to add engineering complexity to maneuver around a privately owned and built tunnel. A metro rail line can't transport a car, so point-to-point transit is out, as is any semblance of privacy. Why are you so quick to devalue these advantages?…

He can’t build it profitably, or at least without going through the environmental impact review that every other project of this scale must pass. Do you really think the hole digging is the bottleneck for every other underground project?

How much infrastructure is getting built under the current review process? The current process is just a fig leaf for everyone getting a NIMBY veto. California ought to be ashamed of its technological paralysis.

Re: Boring Co. Drops LA Westside Tunnel Plan

#169
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Boring Co isn’t giving up on LA entirely. This was just one test tunnel. They have already succeeded on their other 2 mile test tunnel (Dodger Stadium) and are working to extend that.

The tunnel initial capacity will be 1400 people per day and maybe 2800 later. This is 3% of average game attendance. https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-dodger-stadium-...

Importantly, that 1400 people is per day, as in...the entire day. A single bus can take 50-60 people in 30-40 minutes (roundtrip), so a dozen buses could transport more people to the game in an hour than the Elontunnel in an entire day.

Metro runs between 12 and 24 shuttle buses to Dodgers games (based on anticipated attendance) starting about 2 hours before to about an hour after the game ends, for a theoretical capacity of 3600 people on the low end and 17,000 on the high end over the course of the game.

Re: Boring Co. Drops LA Westside Tunnel Plan

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet development should take the environment into consideration because it can have massive consequences. Those consequences are ultimately an externality of the development project and evaluating it in advance can help inform the true financials of the project.

Oddly enough, currently the opposite is true. All the construction blocks being put up sometimes in the name of environmental assessment are pushing people out of dense areas and into sprawling suburbs, with people taking on huge commutes to get to work. Where is the environmental assessment on NIMBY-ism I wonder? :/

There is a lot of construction going on in LA right now. It's actually quite easy to get new construction approved if you just follow the rules.

Of course, if you choose not to follow the rules and processes for development...it's very difficult.

Elon's learning the hard way that not following the rules can make his pet projects difficult or even impossible.

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