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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#851

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worker's unions helped win the majority of our rights in modern democracies. I wish this fact was more widely appreciated.

> Worker's unions helped win the majority of our rights in modern democracies. I wish this fact was more widely appreciated. The problem with modern unions, particularly in tech, is that the legacy structure is inapt for current problems. Tech workers don't need a union to negotiate compensation, they're compensated fine already. They don't need a huge bureaucratic structure for engaging in long-term detailed negotia…

If tech workers form a union, I'm sure it will look very different to the industrial worker's unions of the 20th century. And so it should, the needs of today are very different. The thing is, apart from the remaining unions from that time, most unions already look very different to that model so this is not really a good argument against unionising.

The other thing you aren't taking into account is the fact that this boom in the tech industry isn't guaranteed to continue forever. There will come a time, maybe pretty soon, where tech workers will become as precarious as those steel workers and autoworkers eventually became. Big tech companies are already putting a lot of effort and resources into educating the next generation of programmers to provide a more competitive labour market and drive down salaries. There's already talk of a coming recession, where I'm sure the belts will be tightened and people will be laid off. When we have a union, we will be more protected from the inevitable exploitation in such scenarios.

The temporarily embarassed unicorn founders among us need to realise that we are the creators of all the value in these companies and, collectively, we have the power to influence their direction and impact on society. We can help secure not only our own rights as workers but also have the power to change society at large and secure better standards of living for all workers (or non-workers). That's why these recent actions by Google employees have been so important. They can set a precedent for how other companies and even states can safely act in future, without fearing repercussions from their most valuable resource - the workers.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#853
post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bargaining power. (Organized) working humans have it...but it will erode as robots and algorithms take on more and more work. An argument for striking while the iron is hot. (No pun intended.)

Historically, whenever there's advancement in technology. Powers that control the current will get challenged, and so far, it has been for the better for the majority. We've gone a long way from being serfs who have almost no rights, even the right to read and write.. to citizens who can communicate via the internet. Advancement in technology will/have make current powers obsolete. Robots and algorithms have been tak…

I think technology has allowed power to become more and more concentrated. Never before has one state had the power to annihilate entire cities, or land entire armies worth of troops at any point on earth within 24 hours. Never before have large and powerful organisations and governments had the capability to read every word that every person sends to each other and track their every motion around the city with cameras.

Yes there is more surplus, but where is that going? People in developed societies are working more hours now than they were 100 years ago. Wealth inequality has risen to higher levels than ever existed in modern society. I wish it gave me more time to read books...

We definitely need to be more engaged in resisting these dangerous tendencies, particularly with recent political developments. I think organised tech workers have immense power. If Google employees could formalise their current actions and then even unite with other groups across other companies, they would be a force to be reckoned with.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Certain EU Nations want to prevent fat right nationalist radicalization via censorship But why don’t they apply the same censorship to the far left? That’s where I have my problem with it, it isn’t to protect the people from the far right, it’s to control public discourse in a way that reinforces their leftist ideology. The Communist Party isn’t censored in Europe, but right-wing groups are. You can celebrate Stali…

Nazism is wrong, though. So is a good majority of what far right nationalists preach. It's almost, but not quite, false equivalence. You could make a moral relativism argument, but at the end of the day the global zeitgeist is moving towards the "good" that some people associate with liberal values, and always has been. From an anthropological standpoint, I'm with you - the ideologies are indistinguishable. From a mo…

Communism is not Good either I'd say. Better argument would be "Europeans at least liked Commies when they have taken over, Nazis just invaded everyone".

The best would be to just admit that Europe is wrong in censoring stupid far right (Nazis), while mostly ignoring stupid far left (Commies).

But some people liked the pseudo-communist regimes, while almost nobody liked Nazi occupation (which is still in fresh memory). So the opposition to banning Commies is real and noticeable. So not so simple.

Tl;dr: Simplified "moral standpoint" holds no water in these discussions.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#855
post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A moral inconsistency is not a nitpick when it's the entire industry. Their logic makes Google a better employer than Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook and any other tech company currently operating in China. Saying they spurned Google because the company was considering going to China is disengenious, since the majority of the substitute employers are already in China.

> Saying they spurned Google...the majority of the substitute employers are already in China. There is life outside of the FAANG/GAFAM bubble. If you refuse to work at Google, it doesn't mean that you're then obligated to work at Amazon or Microsoft, etc.

Of course there is, but when considering substitute employers, in the economic sense, working in a small-town software shop isn't quite the same as working at a multinational tech company.

If we're looking at it in that lens, then GP's problem isn't with Google, but with large tech companies in general because that's the industry standard.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#856

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, maybe it shouldn't stop at China. Maybe google should commit to a policy of "protected free speech" on a wide range of political topics that it will never censor in any country (roughly in line with the first amendment). Great idea.

So you do support censorship, just not on political topics you agree with. Problem is, what's politically acceptable is highly subjective and varies greatly from country to country.

I read the parent differently - just don't censor political speech. Regardless of whether we agree with it.

And that sounds reasonable. I hate FUD-spreading around e.g. immigration, but I don't support any censorship around it. Just debunk the FUD, hiding it won't solve anything, and might hurt a lot when some people get "redpilled" by discovering censored opinions.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#857

If I was in China and had to choose between having a choice between censored baidu and censored google vs just censored baidu, I'd rather have both baidu and google. It's easy for us here in the western world as we have access to both and more uncensored sources to take the moral high ground and subject the Chinese to a "let them eat cake" attitude. Not sure if this will benefit people over there though to ban google…

I have to agree with this. Some search is better than no search. Not everything can be censored and people WILL find information they are not supposed to find, just with more digging than in the rest of the world. Saying that Google should not provide any search product in China is shortsighted and purely ideological.

> Saying that Google should not provide any search product in China is shortsighted and purely ideological.

> and purely ideological.

Umm. Is that not _the_ point? OP disagrees with China gov't ideology so hard, that it just can't support it (the ideology) in any direct way?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#858
post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

??? Define mainstream West

Western Europe, NZ, Australia, Canada. The US has always been an outlier amongst the rich nations: more religious, more violent, etc. None of the attitudes referred to by the parent would be 'hyper-' anything in most of these nations.

Social liberalism California edition is quite extreme even for (Western) Europe.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#859
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good for you, for real. It takes a lot sometimes to stand up against something that a lot of other people would jump for the chance to do. While it is a nice enough gesture, let's not kid ourselves that this was some difficult selfless act on the part of the OP. Apologies to the OP if I have misinterpreted their earlier post but: > I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me This st…

>eventually a recruiter for a FAANG style company is going to spam you with an email. This. I have said 'no, thanks' to FAANG in the last 3 months because my life is in a bit of a flux right now. It was a bit more than a simple 'no, thanks' in case of Facebook, but that's a story for another thread :)

Post it, it's relevant

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#860

I find the Google/Chinese search engine troubling, but I do think people are playing this up to be a lot more than it should be. I think one fact is that Google is in an area and recruits people that are hyper liberal individuals. For example: not wanting to work with the U.S. military on projects, having AI use gender neutral writing, random PC things, little diversity in political thought etc. I don't think Google…

Can you name a single example of something that you seem problematic?

I smell flamebait. But parent is baiting too, with great points. Ok I'll bite:

Situation around firing of James Damore. Not even the firing itself as the (imo!) manufactured outrage that caused it.

From (not only) my PoV it was quite extreme, and quite disconcerting. And I consider myself a very left-leaning person.

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