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Editing Babies? We Need to Learn a Lot More First

nytimes.com

31–40 of 52 posts

Re: Editing Babies? We Need to Learn a Lot More First

#31
I wonder to what extent the existence and use of CRISPR to edit a baby will serve to normalize the relatively less radical practice of IVF embryo selection[1] on a wider range of criteria than we currently accept. That would also open the door to some enhancements. Many traits that parents might care about are deeply polygenetic and not amenable to the sort of editing we can currently perform but could still be selected for in this manner.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimplantation_genetic_diagno...

Re: Editing Babies? We Need to Learn a Lot More First

#33
It's interesting. We actually can't edit for complex traits like intelligence or schizophrenia at present because they seem to be deeply polygenic and Chabris has basically led us to stop identifying specific genes and their mechanisms. This means that we know genes play some role in schizophrenia but have no idea what it is the genes are doing. Consider for example a gene that makes mothers less affectionate with their children. GWASs and the like pick this up as genetic causation of schizophrenia, and maybe editing that gene is even a good thing, however it's not really what we think of when we think of 'genetic causation of schizophrenia.' Even something like height, a gene that makes your joints marginally larger will have a small effect on your height and get picked up. However, would it actually be beneficial to give your kid bigger joints so that they're a bit taller?

So then we're basically restricted to curing simple diseases where specific genetic causes are already identified. Or are we? It seems to me the real risk is not from rich people engineering smarter babies, it's a company who says they can genetically engineer a smarter baby but mostly just tinker around with inconsequential traits. Then we get an 'uber race' of people who believe that they are elite in essence, immutably so, when actually they're not that different. Like the racism of old.

Re: Editing Babies? We Need to Learn a Lot More First

#34

I wonder to what extent the existence and use of CRISPR to edit a baby will serve to normalize the relatively less radical practice of IVF embryo selection[1] on a wider range of criteria than we currently accept. That would also open the door to some enhancements. Many traits that parents might care about are deeply polygenetic and not amenable to the sort of editing we can currently perform but could still be selec…

There are ethical concerns in some areas. However I have no ethical concern about knocking out the Downs Syndrome gene (though how you would do this is a different question). Likewise blind or deaf genes can go. As can high cholesterol genes.

Re: Editing Babies? We Need to Learn a Lot More First

#35
post #28
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also George Church says it's "probably accurate" https://www.statnews.com/2018/11/26/claim-of-crispred-baby-g...

It's worth noting that none of the moderators or questioners at the talk expressed any skepticism that He had done it. They all took for granted He had.

do you know why? my guess is they had previous contact/correspondence throughout the pregnancy

Edit: there are slides of his presentation: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1T1zLTtHS2z_cgl29...

Re: Editing Babies? We Need to Learn a Lot More First

#36
post #30
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a reasonable justification but there still the ethical thorn of "the child did not ask/consented to this". If science ethics can get beyond that border, then the new standard might be to seek out rare genetic defects throughout the world and attempt treatments in parallel.

I didn't consent to my current loadout of genes. How would a bundle of genes consent to be some other bundle of genes? What does that even mean?

that you didnt have a choice anyway. but theoretically these babies did. of course this is all in ideas territory.

Re: Editing Babies? We Need to Learn a Lot More First

#37
post #27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a reasonable justification but there still the ethical thorn of "the child did not ask/consented to this". If science ethics can get beyond that border, then the new standard might be to seek out rare genetic defects throughout the world and attempt treatments in parallel.

What idiot would not consent to this though? Okay, there might be religious issues - if you believe this will send you to hell I can accept that. I can't think of any other reason that someone would not agree to removing good genes. And since this is my child that we are talking about we can assume the child's values are mine. I carry one of the bad cholesterol genes (I haven't been medically tested but family histor…

obviously embryos can't consent that is the problem. I think there is an entire field of philosophy dedicated to this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_rights

Re: Editing Babies? We Need to Learn a Lot More First

#38
post #37
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What idiot would not consent to this though? Okay, there might be religious issues - if you believe this will send you to hell I can accept that. I can't think of any other reason that someone would not agree to removing good genes. And since this is my child that we are talking about we can assume the child's values are mine. I carry one of the bad cholesterol genes (I haven't been medically tested but family histor…

obviously embryos can't consent that is the problem. I think there is an entire field of philosophy dedicated to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_rights

Babies cannot consent to vaccines, but it is unethical to not give them to them anyway.

Re: Editing Babies? We Need to Learn a Lot More First

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a particularly bad example to make that case over, as it is hard to discern any scientific or medical justification for it, while the known risks are considerable. Frankly, it looks to me like a posterity-grabbing stunt - an attempt by the researcher to write himself into the history books.

First, the event reported on is almost certainly a scam (HIV resistance ? Seriously ?). But let's assume it's valid. But I don't agree at all with the sentiment. Most/all current gene editing is about fixing known issues, and in nearly all cases (at the moment) it seems like the edited gene, even if it goes disastrously wrong, would still be superior to the "natural" gene. E.g. MVD, MS, ... Should we also outlaw (and…

>the event reported on is almost certainly a scam (HIV resistance ? Seriously ?)

I haven't decided what I think about this event yet, but I would certainly not assume it's a scam. HIV resistance is a real thing and has a genetic basis. Here's a handful of articles documenting HIV/Aids resistance around the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innate_resistance_to_HIV

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/may/27/aids.features

https://www.nature.com/news/2005/050307/full/news050307-15.h...

Re: Editing Babies? We Need to Learn a Lot More First

#40
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, the event reported on is almost certainly a scam (HIV resistance ? Seriously ?). But let's assume it's valid. But I don't agree at all with the sentiment. Most/all current gene editing is about fixing known issues, and in nearly all cases (at the moment) it seems like the edited gene, even if it goes disastrously wrong, would still be superior to the "natural" gene. E.g. MVD, MS, ... Should we also outlaw (and…

This seems like a reasonable justification but there still the ethical thorn of "the child did not ask/consented to this". If science ethics can get beyond that border, then the new standard might be to seek out rare genetic defects throughout the world and attempt treatments in parallel.

There is no new ground being broken here; infants already cannot ask or consent to any existing medical procedure, and we have resolved this by asking the parents or legal guardians.
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