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Civil’s tokenomics has left its journalists wondering where their salary is

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Re: Civil’s tokenomics has left its journalists wondering where their salary is

#41

Post by decentralised »

logifail wrote: post #39
decentralised wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is moving money into war zones in a way that is immune to theft and abuse. The vouchers are 100% digital and unique.

I thought the vouchers were going to people living in refugee camps? Presumably along with "100% digital vouchers", you need to ship out any required infrastructure, stuff like iris scanners and computers. Are these computers and iris scanners also immune to theft and abuse? They sound amazing :) Does the system require a working power grid?

The infrastructure of iris scanners and computers already exists in refugee camps (edit: for security reasons). It does require power but something like what we're building for the Sun Protocol (http://thesunprotocol.io) can be deployed in hours and support token based payments instantly.

I briefly worked with a startup whose founder is a Syrian refugee. Smart-phones and crypto wallets is what allows many of them to survive.

Re: Civil’s tokenomics has left its journalists wondering where their salary is

#42

Post by matwood »

logifail wrote: post #39
decentralised wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is moving money into war zones in a way that is immune to theft and abuse. The vouchers are 100% digital and unique.

I thought the vouchers were going to people living in refugee camps? Presumably along with "100% digital vouchers", you need to ship out any required infrastructure, stuff like iris scanners and computers. Are these computers and iris scanners also immune to theft and abuse? They sound amazing :) Does the system require a working power grid?

Of course almost anything can be abused. The digital voucher system is much harder to abuse than sending pallets of cash or food though. Don't let perfect get in the way of improvement.

You are correct though, that it's not an across the board improvement because of the additional required infrastructure.

Re: Civil’s tokenomics has left its journalists wondering where their salary is

#43

Post by logifail »

decentralised wrote: post #41
logifail wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the vouchers were going to people living in refugee camps? Presumably along with "100% digital vouchers", you need to ship out any required infrastructure, stuff like iris scanners and computers. Are these computers and iris scanners also immune to theft and abuse? They sound amazing :) Does the system require a working power grid?

The infrastructure of iris scanners and computers already exists in refugee camps (edit: for security reasons). It does require power but something like what we're building for the Sun Protocol ( http://thesunprotocol.io ) can be deployed in hours and support token based payments instantly. I briefly worked with a startup whose founder is a Syrian refugee. Smart-phones and crypto wallets is what allows many of them t…

>> The infrastructure of iris scanners and computers already exists in refugee camps

(I'm genuinely curious) what kind of coverage across the globe are we talking about here?

Things have obviously come a long way, it's not that long ago that the UNHCR was talking about "water, sanitation and hygiene".

More infrastructure questions: does the system also require a working internet connection? If so, when the internet connection goes down, can vouchers no-longer be "redeemed" until it comes back up?

Re: Civil’s tokenomics has left its journalists wondering where their salary is

#44

Post by notahacker »

riffraff wrote: post #8
anongraddebt wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I still have close to no idea what DLT/Crypto/Decentralization/etc. even is, or rather is for. Assuming the tech actually has wings we won't really understand the how and why until certain use cases come to dominate. Even then, it can be difficult. After Western Union was founded (19th century), people would walk into WU offices to send money over the telegraph line and say things like, "Where can I see the lit…

Couldn't journalists always run their own newspaper? In Italy we had cooperatives running newspapers and magazines as long as I can remember, doesn't this happen elsewhere? I _think_ the advantage of Civil might be that you get to pay directly a journalist rather than the group, but I'm not sure it's a big improvement.

To pay journalists directly there are platforms where you can already pay directly for the article (Blendle), plenty of blogging platforms and new media startups than pay journalists at least in part by page impressions/revenues, and online tipjars.

Whether these clickbait factor or article quality depends on the journalist and audience as well as the model, but all of these approaches seem much closer to the ideal of helping journalists earn by the popularity of their output than a startup paying part of journalists' salary in tokens whose main utility according to the white paper appears to be votes to censor/censure other publications for ethics violations.

Re: Civil’s tokenomics has left its journalists wondering where their salary is

#45

Post by notahacker »

M2Ys4U wrote: post #38
anongraddebt wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I still have close to no idea what DLT/Crypto/Decentralization/etc. even is, or rather is for. Assuming the tech actually has wings we won't really understand the how and why until certain use cases come to dominate. Even then, it can be difficult. After Western Union was founded (19th century), people would walk into WU offices to send money over the telegraph line and say things like, "Where can I see the lit…

Why send them tokens and not real money? Especially if one has to spend real money to get the tokens in the first place...

tbf, the whitepaper is unusually candid in suggesting that journalists on the platform in control of their revenue model will often charge in other currencies instead...

Re: Civil’s tokenomics has left its journalists wondering where their salary is

#46

Post by logifail »

matwood wrote: post #42
logifail wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the vouchers were going to people living in refugee camps? Presumably along with "100% digital vouchers", you need to ship out any required infrastructure, stuff like iris scanners and computers. Are these computers and iris scanners also immune to theft and abuse? They sound amazing :) Does the system require a working power grid?

Of course almost anything can be abused. The digital voucher system is much harder to abuse than sending pallets of cash or food though. Don't let perfect get in the way of improvement. You are correct though, that it's not an across the board improvement because of the additional required infrastructure.

>> Don't let perfect get in the way of improvement.

Let's not forget that "simple" often beats "complex".

I'm still not sure what blockchain actually brings to this particular use-case, compared with a digital yet non-blockchain-based alternative.

Re: Civil’s tokenomics has left its journalists wondering where their salary is

#47

Post by decentralised »

logifail wrote: post #43
decentralised wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The infrastructure of iris scanners and computers already exists in refugee camps (edit: for security reasons). It does require power but something like what we're building for the Sun Protocol ( http://thesunprotocol.io ) can be deployed in hours and support token based payments instantly. I briefly worked with a startup whose founder is a Syrian refugee. Smart-phones and crypto wallets is what allows many of them t…

>> The infrastructure of iris scanners and computers already exists in refugee camps (I'm genuinely curious) what kind of coverage across the globe are we talking about here? Things have obviously come a long way, it's not that long ago that the UNHCR was talking about "water, sanitation and hygiene". More infrastructure questions: does the system also require a working internet connection? If so, when the internet c…

Well there doesn't need to be a fully working, always up internet connection. A satellite connection will do just fine, and these tend to be available at camps. One way of doing this would be with state channels, where most of the oltp is done off-chain and signed messages can be relayed via sneaker-net until an on-line node is found days / weeks later.

Re: Civil’s tokenomics has left its journalists wondering where their salary is

#48

Post by decentralised »

logifail wrote: post #46
matwood wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course almost anything can be abused. The digital voucher system is much harder to abuse than sending pallets of cash or food though. Don't let perfect get in the way of improvement. You are correct though, that it's not an across the board improvement because of the additional required infrastructure.

>> Don't let perfect get in the way of improvement. Let's not forget that "simple" often beats "complex". I'm still not sure what blockchain actually brings to this particular use-case, compared with a digital yet non-blockchain-based alternative.

The problem is that there is no form of digital good that is incorruptible and unfalsifiable that is not blockchain-based.

Re: Civil’s tokenomics has left its journalists wondering where their salary is

#49

Post by logifail »

logifail wrote: post #43
decentralised wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The infrastructure of iris scanners and computers already exists in refugee camps (edit: for security reasons). It does require power but something like what we're building for the Sun Protocol ( http://thesunprotocol.io ) can be deployed in hours and support token based payments instantly. I briefly worked with a startup whose founder is a Syrian refugee. Smart-phones and crypto wallets is what allows many of them t…

>> The infrastructure of iris scanners and computers already exists in refugee camps (I'm genuinely curious) what kind of coverage across the globe are we talking about here? Things have obviously come a long way, it's not that long ago that the UNHCR was talking about "water, sanitation and hygiene". More infrastructure questions: does the system also require a working internet connection? If so, when the internet c…

If you're not working directly on the chain, because there's no internet connection, how do you deal with double-spending attacks?

Re: Civil’s tokenomics has left its journalists wondering where their salary is

#50

Post by logifail »

decentralised wrote: post #48
logifail wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Don't let perfect get in the way of improvement. Let's not forget that "simple" often beats "complex". I'm still not sure what blockchain actually brings to this particular use-case, compared with a digital yet non-blockchain-based alternative.

The problem is that there is no form of digital good that is incorruptible and unfalsifiable that is not blockchain-based.

Someone else just suggested that we ought not to "let perfect get in the way of improvement".

The way this discussion is going I can't help but think of Ernesto Sirolli's talk[0]

To put it another way, are the refugees themselves demanding "incorruptible and unfalsifiable", or are they actually just hungry?

[0] https://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someo...

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