Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Battling Entropy

fs.blog

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 62 posts

Re: Battling Entropy

#21

Post by zimpenfish »

db1 wrote: post #4
saagarjha wrote: post #2

This article begins with an analogy to the thermodynamic concept of entropy, and then attempts to relate it to other kinds of "entropy" by making the simplification that entropy is equivalent to disorder. That's all fine and well, but then I really thinks it goes too far: you really can't try to "reduce entropy" in your business by looking at a physical process, nor is coughing "the transfer of energy as heat". It's…

Oh my god that pepsi document. It's real? Was someone actually paid to produce that document? As I scrolled downwards I just kept getting more and more convinced that it's some kind of ridiculous surrealistic joke thing.

Seconded. It must be some kind of ersatz April Fool.

(although I just know I'm going to show it to my marketing chum later and they'll go "Yep, that's the kind of thing clients want" and I will be sad.)

Re: Battling Entropy

#22

Post by l33tbro »

kgwgk wrote: post #3
saagarjha wrote: post #2

This article begins with an analogy to the thermodynamic concept of entropy, and then attempts to relate it to other kinds of "entropy" by making the simplification that entropy is equivalent to disorder. That's all fine and well, but then I really thinks it goes too far: you really can't try to "reduce entropy" in your business by looking at a physical process, nor is coughing "the transfer of energy as heat". It's…

The Pepsi Orbits Dimensionalize exponentially. The most profound thing you’ll read today! (The last diagram is a bit disappointing, though.)

I'm not sure Peter Arnell (the guy who authored the Pepsi rebrand) was ever setting out to be profound. I think he was just a brilliant opportunist who recognized that Fortune 500 marketing managers would pay hand-over-fist for his utter bullshit.

Re: Battling Entropy

#23

Post by ebullientocelot »

db1 wrote: post #4
saagarjha wrote: post #2

This article begins with an analogy to the thermodynamic concept of entropy, and then attempts to relate it to other kinds of "entropy" by making the simplification that entropy is equivalent to disorder. That's all fine and well, but then I really thinks it goes too far: you really can't try to "reduce entropy" in your business by looking at a physical process, nor is coughing "the transfer of energy as heat". It's…

Oh my god that pepsi document. It's real? Was someone actually paid to produce that document? As I scrolled downwards I just kept getting more and more convinced that it's some kind of ridiculous surrealistic joke thing.

I know, right??

Some real gems:

pg. 21: Emotive forces shape the gestalt of the brand identity.

Actually no, the whole thing is patently absurd. Wow. What the fuck?

Apparently this presentation earned a million dollar fee:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pepsis-nonsensical-logo-redesig...

In fairness it is marked as WIP.. I suppose it could have been completely scrapped and redone before presenting to the client :P

Edit:

AdWeek was less convinced at the time:

https://www.adweek.com/digital/the-pepsi-logo-design-pdf-emb...

Can't find anything definitive on what this actually was, seems like a lot of "hoax or not?" type pieces with no conclusion that I can see.

Re: Battling Entropy

#24

Post by jacobmoe »

esalman wrote: post #10
saagarjha wrote: post #2

This article begins with an analogy to the thermodynamic concept of entropy, and then attempts to relate it to other kinds of "entropy" by making the simplification that entropy is equivalent to disorder. That's all fine and well, but then I really thinks it goes too far: you really can't try to "reduce entropy" in your business by looking at a physical process, nor is coughing "the transfer of energy as heat". It's…

Interestingly, biological beings seems to defy the second law by working to reduce disorder, or surprises, in the sensory system. This is the meat of Karl Friston's Bayesian hypothesis of the brain.

The energy radiated from the earth is in a higher entropy state than the energy it absorbs. If the theory that biological beings defied the second law were true, you'd expect the opposite to be the case. Life is a kind of machine that uses useful low entropy energy to create organisms, emitting less useful high entropy energy as a byproduct. Not all that different than any other kind of energy-using machine.

Re: Battling Entropy

#25

Post by wiredfool »

Sonnet against Entropy

  The worm drives helically through the wood
  And does not know the dust left in the bore
  Once made the table integral and good;
  And suddenly the crystal hits the floor.
  Electrons find their paths in subtle ways,
  A massless eddy in a trail of smoke;
  The names of lovers, light of other days
  Perhaps you will not miss them. That's the joke.
  The universe winds down. That's how it's made.
  But memory is everything to lose;
  Although some of the colors have to fade,
  Do not believe you'll get the chance to choose.
  Regret, by definition, comes too late;
  Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate.
John M Ford (originally here: http://nielsenhayden.com/electrolite/archives/003789.html)

Re: Battling Entropy

#26

Post by jacobmoe »

Rainymood wrote: post #6

>The second law of thermodynamics states that “as one goes forward in time, the net entropy (degree of disorder) of any isolated or closed system will always increase (or at least stay the same).”[1] That is a long way of saying that all things tend towards disorder. This is one of the basic laws of the universe and is something we can observe in our lives. Entropy is simply a measure of disorder. You can think of it…

I think the response you got pointing out that "disorder" is a poor approximation of the actual physical law is the best explanation but it's probably dissatisfying.

I like this analogy from Sean Carroll, explaining the difference between disorder and complexity: the moment you first pour cream into your coffee, the coffee-cream system is low entropy. All the cream is at the top, all the coffee is at the bottom, none is mixed together. It's very easy to describe the system. If it was stored as data, you could compress the data very easily. After you stir the coffee for a while and it's all mixed up, it is in its highest entropy state. It's all smooth and mixed together. This is also very easy to describe: everything is mixed up. It's in the middle where you get all the neat swirrles and interesting patterns. We're living in the middle state, between the low entropy moment at the big bang and high entropy heat death of the universe. The galaxies and clusters and life are the swirles.

Re: Battling Entropy

#27

Post by eru »

SEMW wrote: post #7
Rainymood wrote: post #6

>The second law of thermodynamics states that “as one goes forward in time, the net entropy (degree of disorder) of any isolated or closed system will always increase (or at least stay the same).”[1] That is a long way of saying that all things tend towards disorder. This is one of the basic laws of the universe and is something we can observe in our lives. Entropy is simply a measure of disorder. You can think of it…

You're making the (very common) mistake of taking a poetic English-language interpretation of a physical law -- which is necessarily lossy/imprecise, since the actual law is mathematical -- and over-interpreting the words without referring back to the actual law. You can see the law (in the context of thermal & statistical physics) at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(statistical_thermodyn... . You can of course…

'Information' is another way to translate. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(information_theory)

Re: Battling Entropy

#28

Post by eru »

kgwgk wrote: post #18
dr_dshiv wrote: post #8

Entropy has been increasing since the big bang, when it was at minimum value. While the total energy didn't change since then, there has been a vast increase in the potential locations of that energy and a vast increase in the number of different interactions possible within that energy. This increases entropy because the possibility space has increased. Boltzman entropy is defined as the number of potential microsco…

Thermodynamical entropy is not a physical property of a system. It’s a property of our description of the system as a macroscopic state. Quantum (von Neumann) entropy is a related but different concept. It’s worth noting that it is constant for a closed system. Cosmological entropy can be defined in different ways. In summary, entropy means many things and not all “entropies” behave in the same way.

Interesting enough, even though entropy is in some sense a property of a description of a system, there are things like 'entropic forces' and they play a big role in physics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropic_force

Re: Battling Entropy

#29

Post by bocklund »

The definition of the second law of thermodynamics at the top is not right. A closed system can have energy put in from the surroundings to decrease entropy. Only isolated systems that cannot exchange energy with the surroundings follow the second law. Only the universe is truly isolated (see the common definition of the second law),

You decrease the entropy (disorder if you like, or not) of things by putting energy in.

Re: Battling Entropy

#30

Post by drekembemutombo »

Rainymood wrote: post #6

>The second law of thermodynamics states that “as one goes forward in time, the net entropy (degree of disorder) of any isolated or closed system will always increase (or at least stay the same).”[1] That is a long way of saying that all things tend towards disorder. This is one of the basic laws of the universe and is something we can observe in our lives. Entropy is simply a measure of disorder. You can think of it…

Entropy is more accurately defined as hidden information, or the number of possible microstates that a system in a certain macrostate could have. Here's a great lecture by Leonard Susskind on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7eW-xPEvoQ
Post reply on HN