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Armageddon Looms over World Chess Champs after Carlsen’s Shocking Decision

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Re: Armageddon Looms over World Chess Champs after Carlsen’s Shocking Decision

#91

Post by Barrin92 »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #82
freyir wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strategic, it's rational, and still it's disappointing. He was renown for pressing forward against the odds and clinching unexpected victories. Mathias Feist on Carlsen: "There is an equal position on the board, and the opponent thinks: this is dead drawn. I can play almost anything and there is nothing he can do. But Magnus plays on, seeking complications, setting up threats. He is narrowing the margin required…

> “It's strategic, it's rational, and still it's disappointing.” You’ve lost me there. I don’t see how disappoint is the conclusion. It seems equivalent to suggesting the player should take risks or chances based on what might stylistically please the audience as opposed to what might win the match overall. I’ve never understood spectators watching competitors and thinking, why won’t they do what I want them to do in…

It's not just about pleasing the audience. Showing respect and appreciation for the game itself is important to chess players, and to competitive sports overall.

People who follow and participate in competitions passionately don't usually just try to maximize their chances to win, they also want to deliver the best effort they can.

Magnus Carlsen specifically was always respected for his fighting spirit. In his championship game against Anand a few years ago he played out a practically drawn endgame to a win through sheer tenacity, and he once managed to win a game in St Louis where a draw that was offered to him would have won him the tournament on the spot, but he declined and played it out.

This fighting aspect has always made him an especially great player (not just for the game and the audience, but it has also put him above the competition).

Re: Armageddon Looms over World Chess Champs after Carlsen’s Shocking Decision

#93

Post by lmkg »

schoen wrote: post #85
colmvp wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still irks me that something as rare and prestigious as the World Cup (and Olympic Hockey) can get decided by shootouts. I mean, I get it, football has a huge pitch and it'd probably be ridiculous to have guys exhausted, barely able to jog at the 150th minute. That said, one of the things I love about NHL playoff hockey is that without compromise, it's first goal wins overtime, where players are willing to do ever…

> It was pretty comical in the locker room between guys searching for food, some guys getting IVs. It's impressive that they made such an extreme effort, but I'm not sure I would use the word "comical" to describe needing medical treatment. (I mean, lots of athletes receive medical attention and presumably nobody considered it a life-threatening emergency, but that part still doesn't sound quite "comical".)

They get IVs to stay hydrated. They're not "in need" of medical treatment, they're choosing to use something that's usually a medical treatment as a routine process instead of drinking from a water bottle. I assume because it's either faster hydration, or avoids stomach issues.

Re: Armageddon Looms over World Chess Champs after Carlsen’s Shocking Decision

#94

Post by jhalstead »

rhacker wrote: post #92

Is any of this being livestreamed anywhere? Specifically tomorrow's matches? 7am just seems so worth it after reading the exciting tie-breaks today.

Chess24 has had 3 top 25 GMs narrating together for the last few games. Tomorrow's live stream is at https://youtu.be/HBvQ36SqgqM.

Note: If it wasn't clear, that stream will not literally be of Carlsen & Caruana. It mirrors the current position in the game and has commentators analyze it. I don't think a free livestream exists that shows Carlsen & Caruana live, making the moves.

Re: Armageddon Looms over World Chess Champs after Carlsen’s Shocking Decision

#96

Post by tedeh »

fjsolwmv wrote: post #10
lazyant wrote: post #4

In past World Chess Championships when they finished tied with points the current champion retained the title, which I found disappointing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_1987#...

The effectively cointoss plan for this tourney isn't better. They should accept co-titles for equally matched players

At the next tournament, two challengers are presented to the two champions with a co-title.

Imagine they also tie all their matches; now the world has four reigning chess champions!

Re: Armageddon Looms over World Chess Champs after Carlsen’s Shocking Decision

#97

Post by mlthoughts2018 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #91
mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “It's strategic, it's rational, and still it's disappointing.” You’ve lost me there. I don’t see how disappoint is the conclusion. It seems equivalent to suggesting the player should take risks or chances based on what might stylistically please the audience as opposed to what might win the match overall. I’ve never understood spectators watching competitors and thinking, why won’t they do what I want them to do in…

It's not just about pleasing the audience. Showing respect and appreciation for the game itself is important to chess players, and to competitive sports overall. People who follow and participate in competitions passionately don't usually just try to maximize their chances to win, they also want to deliver the best effort they can. Magnus Carlsen specifically was always respected for his fighting spirit. In his champ…

This reply borders on incoherent to me. What is best effort if not choosing the course of action you deem gives you the best chance to win? Exhausting yourself and risking a blunder in the final classical match just because other people want to see the spectacle of it? That doesn’t seem like “effort” at all.

Why do soccer players make back passes from offensive positions when tied 0-0? You think the coach gives a shit at that point if the crowd wants someone to give “effort” in a press, leaving exposed chances for a sudden counter-attack? Sometimes playing the back pass is the right “best effort” to be made.

Same with an intentional kneel to run out the clock before halftime instead of risking injury or a turnover on a last second play in American football. Or intentionally walking a home run hitter in baseball if you think you stand a great chance to strike out the next batter.

You seem to be conflating “best effort” with “intentionally disregard the strategy you deem best because a riskier course of action would be more appreciated by spectators.”

Re: Armageddon Looms over World Chess Champs after Carlsen’s Shocking Decision

#98

Post by rhacker »

jhalstead wrote: post #94
rhacker wrote: post #92

Is any of this being livestreamed anywhere? Specifically tomorrow's matches? 7am just seems so worth it after reading the exciting tie-breaks today.

Chess24 has had 3 top 25 GMs narrating together for the last few games. Tomorrow's live stream is at https://youtu.be/HBvQ36SqgqM . Note: If it wasn't clear, that stream will not literally be of Carlsen & Caruana. It mirrors the current position in the game and has commentators analyze it. I don't think a free livestream exists that shows Carlsen & Caruana live, making the moves.

If that's what I can get I'll take it. Thanks!

Re: Armageddon Looms over World Chess Champs after Carlsen’s Shocking Decision

#99

Post by patrickyeon »

colmvp wrote: post #66
gojomo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might spice-up the whole match to have this final-someone's-gotta-win tiebreaker before other tiebreaker matches, and then hold the result "in case it's needed". That'd be in the same spirit as this recommendation to have Soccer penalty-kick shootouts before overtime. https://slate.com/culture/2016/06/how-to-fix-the-penalty-sho... That is: you know who will win if all other tiebreakers draw, giving the side which…

It still irks me that something as rare and prestigious as the World Cup (and Olympic Hockey) can get decided by shootouts. I mean, I get it, football has a huge pitch and it'd probably be ridiculous to have guys exhausted, barely able to jog at the 150th minute. That said, one of the things I love about NHL playoff hockey is that without compromise, it's first goal wins overtime, where players are willing to do ever…

Part of me feels the same, but (in NHL overtimes at least) I've also heard that injuries become progressively more common per time played as games stretch into longer and longer overtimes. That seems worth avoiding.

Re: Armageddon Looms over World Chess Champs after Carlsen’s Shocking Decision

#100

Post by andrepd »

yodsanklai wrote: post #80
colmvp wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still irks me that something as rare and prestigious as the World Cup (and Olympic Hockey) can get decided by shootouts. I mean, I get it, football has a huge pitch and it'd probably be ridiculous to have guys exhausted, barely able to jog at the 150th minute. That said, one of the things I love about NHL playoff hockey is that without compromise, it's first goal wins overtime, where players are willing to do ever…

> It still irks me that something as rare and prestigious as the World Cup (and Olympic Hockey) can get decided by shootouts. Even without the shoutouts, football is a very random game (compare with something like Tennis). And this is amplified by the tournament format. I like how experts take this game so seriously and come up with deep analysis when there's so much randomness in the result.

You need some data to back that up.

The bulk of football is played in "league" format, not "cup" format, where teams all play each other two times in a year. With 34 matches, for example, much of that "randomness" is gone.

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