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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#701

Post by joshuamorton »

nostrademons wrote: post #506
tanilama wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since 2005, though, good engineers have had lots of options for where to work, many of which pay better or have more growth potential than Google. Growth probably, but very few actually pays better than Google considering all the perks and work life balance you would get from working for Google. And since the startup boom is almost over, it is even more so like that now...

Almost all wealth in Silicon Valley comes from equity price appreciation. Google stock has appreciated 7x since 2009, but Facebook has appreciated 38x in the same time period, Yelp 13x, Netflix about 35x, Apple about 6-7x. I think the boom in web & mobile startups is basically over at this point, but there's a new boom in cryptocurrency & AI startups that's just beginning, along with a social movement (multiple socia…

This is only really true at startups. At a bigco, your on paper comp can be 250 or 350k annually in cash equivalents. That quickly generates wealth even if you are given only cash.

You're comparing 2 pre-ipo companies to Google and apple.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#702

Post by tomschlick »

sdenton4 wrote: post #633
tomschlick wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this increases the chance of using force instead of diplomacy in any given situation. I'm not sure diplomacy works when someone is actively shooting at you or other people. If people are rioting (actually rioting, not protesting) then I honestly don't care how the presence of a MRAP makes them feel. It's the police's job to stop the riot and they need tools to do that. > I'm not going to call the cops for anything…

> I'm not sure diplomacy works when someone is actively shooting at you or other people. Most of the time, police aren't being shot at. And they tend to react to peaceful protest exactly as if it were a riot. This is well documented. Here's an example I was present for: Peaceful protest at the university. Cops in riot gear show up, fly around in helicopters, etc. One of the cops pushes/bumps a girl who then bounces i…

> Most of the time

Key phrase there. We expect our police to be equipped for any situation. So what happens when something like the North Hollywood shooting happens again and you have pinned cops/civilians? In that case officers had to commandeer actual money trucks and raid gun shops to get the equipment they needed to stop the shooters.

> Here's an example I was present for

If that's true then I'm all for punishments / legal action against officers that do wrong.

> If that's not the world you like, let's fix the police!

I'm all for police reform where evidence shows it can help.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#703

Post by sjg007 »

ed_elliott_asc wrote: post #683
tomschlick wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Police do not need mine-resistant vehicles. Serious eye roll here. You're discarding all of the other capabilities and suggesting that because it is ALSO mine resistant it must be bad. > MRAPs have high maintenance and running costs. That's assuming they are used all the time. Most departments have them parked at their HQs and only use them for call outs or training. Regular maintenance wouldn't reach the same leve…

Why do Americans seem to do everything they can about people with guns, except take away their guns?

If only guns caused food poisoning; we don't even care about lead poisoning.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#704

Post by tomschlick »

ABCLAW wrote: post #640
tomschlick wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this increases the chance of using force instead of diplomacy in any given situation. I'm not sure diplomacy works when someone is actively shooting at you or other people. If people are rioting (actually rioting, not protesting) then I honestly don't care how the presence of a MRAP makes them feel. It's the police's job to stop the riot and they need tools to do that. > I'm not going to call the cops for anything…

>I'm not sure diplomacy works when someone is actively shooting at you or other people. I mean, not only is it required by law, as per Graham v. Connor, but the current trend in national standards for dealing with riots is trending towards implementing de-escalation techniques and other measures designed to protect the sanctity of life rather than using escalating violence to disperse the crowd.

You seem to be conflating two issues there. If there is a shooting there is no negotiation until they can deem the situation under control.

For riots, obviously using other dispersion tactics is preferable and should be used before physical force is employed.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#705

Post by sjg007 »

manigandham wrote: post #698
electrograv wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps concerns about 'the over-militarization of police' is essentially a concern for situations where an extreme power imbalance exists between police and civilians, creating a much higher risk of totalitarian abuse and oppression by police in situations where the police force in question becomes corrupt or 'bad' in some way. (Disclaimer: I'm not making an anti-LEO argument; quite the contrary, I'm very pro-LEO, a…

Civilians can buy heavily armored vehicles, yes. They can also buy military vehicles, provided they are certified (like not carrying weapons) but it is definitely possible to be rolling around in a MRAP style machine completely legally.

Hmm.. are you sure? Don't they have to be street legal to drive on the street? You can probably buy one to drive on private land but that's about it.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#706

Post by tomschlick »

dragonwriter wrote: post #662
tomschlick wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm going to go with the vets' opinion on this one. Anecdotal opinions. I know plenty of vets who don't think MRAPs are a big deal at all. > If Brinks trucks do the same work, use Brinks trucks. Armored cars cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy and outfit from companies like Lenco. MRAPs are bought for ~$1k (transport costs) from the federal government. > Militarization of the police force is a very, very,…

> If the vehicles do the same tasks, in mostly the same way, what's the difference? The difference is that the 1033 program comes with a use-it-or-lose-it utilization requirement, which means that the cheap transfer of military equipment has a built in incentive to overuse it. They are often suitable for tasks that police rarely face, which at a steep discount makes them seem like good deals anyway. But then they mus…

> The difference is that the 1033 program comes with a use-it-or-lose-it utilization requirement

It's my understanding that the requirement is a stop-gap for a single dept ordering 500 of these vehicles and parking them in a warehouse or selling them off. Basically if they use it for training and have it at the ready for call-outs then they satisfy the requirement.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#707

Post by tomschlick »

iainmerrick wrote: post #689
tomschlick wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this increases the chance of using force instead of diplomacy in any given situation. I'm not sure diplomacy works when someone is actively shooting at you or other people. If people are rioting (actually rioting, not protesting) then I honestly don't care how the presence of a MRAP makes them feel. It's the police's job to stop the riot and they need tools to do that. > I'm not going to call the cops for anything…

How do you know they’re not the majority?

Because outside the bubble of HN, people generally support their community police and don't feel threatened to call them when a crime is occurring to them / in front of them.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#708

Post by ipsa »

pavelrub wrote: post #608
ipsa wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can solve this "if against Z, then what about X"? Think of the user. Does a user benefit from being able to clear a permanent record, long after punishment has been served? Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? You can be for the right to be forgotten (and admit to its abuses by politicians and rich hucksters), and against government censorship. This distinction is powerful and therefor oft…

> Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? Yes. Chinese users will most definitely greatly benefit from having a censored Google in China instead of having just a censored Baido. The only people who won't benefit from it are self entitled 20-year-old Google employees across the ocean who in reality don't give a shit about Chinese people, what they want, or how the average Chinese person feels like…

Would you like it if technology you created was used in disagreement with your personal moral compass? Or are you completely agnostic about this?

Google is free to create a censored and wiretapped search engine app for China. But it should give transparency to everyone contributing to Google (especially those indirectly contributing insights or technology), so they can make an informed decision to work there.

> allowing to give the Chinese access to modern technology

This is not a problem or an issue. Nobody would have a problem with a Chinese Google Search engine. It is about facilitating spying, potentially contributing damage to free speech and human rights, about organizing the world's information vs. a government controlled propaganda machine.

What then is the issue, is that Google is very powerful at search and modern technology. And these systems are thus extra damaging in potential. Slapping Google brand on it carries responsabilities.

I do agree this issue has reached the stage of moral outrage. I think this is largely due to the leaks and surprise revelations. Senior Google AI now silent on this issue, yet vocal against Facebook or changing name of conferences.

I would hope the outrage would be the same or louder when this happened in the US, not China, so I don't think it is very much a thing of priviledged West vs. poor East.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#709

Post by tomschlick »

sjg007 wrote: post #705
manigandham wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civilians can buy heavily armored vehicles, yes. They can also buy military vehicles, provided they are certified (like not carrying weapons) but it is definitely possible to be rolling around in a MRAP style machine completely legally.

Hmm.. are you sure? Don't they have to be street legal to drive on the street? You can probably buy one to drive on private land but that's about it.

I don't see how an MRAP would be any less street legal than one of those large dump trucks. At worst you would need a CDL based on the weight but probably not in most states.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#710

Post by BurningFrog »

apostacy wrote: post #332
tokai wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How did you argue against the inevitable "if we don't take this contract, dude across the street will"? Collective action. They can hire 14 new guys, but they won't have any to instruct the new employees in their work.

Google is well aware of the spyware that the Chinese govt is using to oppress it's ethnic minorities, but they don't lift a finger to thwart it. They don't blacklist the app that the government requires Muslims in Xinjiang to have on their phones at all time[1]. They could easily blacklist it. How far is Google willing to go to be friends with China? Mass detainment and ethnic cleansing are well within the realm of p…

Here is a thought for you:

If Google actually were to do anything to help they Anne Franks of China, do you think they would announce it to the world to debate on HN, or do you think they would do it in secret?

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