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What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

economist.com

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Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#31

Post by Pfhreak »

jstanley wrote: post #20
kennywinker wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free trade and corporate welfare are not opposites. By allowing free trade you allow companies to operate wherever the operating cost is lowest, while still selling to the residents of your region. Incentivizing local production (by tarriffing imports) means business operate locally, and importantly, pay taxes locally. You can call that corporate welfare, but for many cases I think that misses the mark.

By allowing free trade you allow companies to operate wherever is most efficient. This reduces costs, and therefore reduces prices (through competition). Everybody is a winner (apart from the previously-protected businesses who now have to compete on a level playing field).

Everyone, that is, except the people who have to live with the externalities that come with chasing efficiency.

Some of those places that are more efficient are more efficient because, hey, they don't regulate emissions. Or they don't have strict safety standards. Or they don't require employers to take care of injured workers.

Clearly, not everybody is a winner.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#32

Post by jstanley »

kennywinker wrote: post #22
jstanley wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imposing tariffs on imports is classic protectionism - are you actually arguing that that is a net benefit? Of course the protected industries benefit from protectionism, the argument against protectionism is that everyone else loses. There is no reason that a transaction with a counterparty in Shanghai should incur any more taxes than an equivalent transaction with a counterparty in Manchester.

> are you actually arguing that that is a net benefit? Net benefit to who? Global capital efficiency, people? Jobs going overeseas to countries with lower wages and less safty/environmental/etc. regulation has been a net loss for humanity... but it has been a major win for capitol!

Why is it a net loss to humanity if a person in a poor country does the job instead of a person in your country? They're people too.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#33

Post by bigpicture »

jdlyga wrote: post #3

So, why do it? Should a razor thin majority in a public vote 2 years ago decide the UK's policy forever?

> So, why do it? Should a razor thin majority in a public vote 2 years ago decide the UK's policy forever?

Why do it? That question ceased being relevant a long time ago, when the process was irreversibly started. The linked article is suggesting a least-bad path forward. People may or may not agree with their assessment.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#34

Post by tdb7893 »

Spivak wrote: post #21
nicky0 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently, yes.

How else do you want democracy to work? The people agreed on a system of rules order to decide between two directions and a decision was made. If the government can just decide to not carry out the will of the people (however thin the margins are) then why have a vote at all?

I wonder if for things like joining our leaving the EU we should make them get at least 60ish percent of the vote. Simple majorities have a tendency to ping-pong back and forth so it doesn't seem optional for huge systemic changes.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#35

Post by kennywinker »

jstanley wrote: post #32
kennywinker wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are you actually arguing that that is a net benefit? Net benefit to who? Global capital efficiency, people? Jobs going overeseas to countries with lower wages and less safty/environmental/etc. regulation has been a net loss for humanity... but it has been a major win for capitol!

Why is it a net loss to humanity if a person in a poor country does the job instead of a person in your country? They're people too.

The lack of safety and environmental regulations, specifically.

Also the wages thing, but I understand that is a more nuanced issue, so let’s set it aside for a moment.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#36

Post by paganel »

clarkmoody wrote: post #2

Some Brexiteers favour a radical response: get rid of all tariffs on imports, as Hong Kong, Macao and Singapore have done. Extravagant assumptions about the benefits of this explain why some pro-Brexit economists see no deal as much less damaging than most of their colleagues. But tariff abolition would have huge effects on agriculture and some types of manufacturing. The government has no plans for such an extirpati…

It’s incredible how some people in the UK (a country of 60+ million people) are ready to compare themselves to mere city states like HK or Singapore. I for one view at as border-line criminal.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#38

Post by ACow_Adonis »

clarkmoody wrote: post #2

Some Brexiteers favour a radical response: get rid of all tariffs on imports, as Hong Kong, Macao and Singapore have done. Extravagant assumptions about the benefits of this explain why some pro-Brexit economists see no deal as much less damaging than most of their colleagues. But tariff abolition would have huge effects on agriculture and some types of manufacturing. The government has no plans for such an extirpati…

It's pretty relevant when significant portions of the no vote live in non-London areas and have general hopes (fantasies?) about jobs (such as farming and manufacturing) returning to the UK.

The world is not a first year economics class on comparative advantage.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#39

Post by tomp »

jstanley wrote: post #9
CPLX wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's the farming community doing in Hong Kong, Macao, and Singapore?

Imposing tariffs on imports is classic protectionism - are you actually arguing that that is a net benefit? Of course the protected industries benefit from protectionism, the argument against protectionism is that everyone else loses. There is no reason that a transaction with a counterparty in Shanghai should incur any more taxes than an equivalent transaction with a counterparty in Manchester.

> are you actually arguing that that is a net benefit?

Depends on what you define as net benefit... Self-sufficiency, especially regarding basic supplies like food, is hugely important for any independent nation. Personally, tariffs on/protectionism of food industry are what I support the most.

Broader picture, net benefit doesn't mean just economic benefit. I support Trump's tariffs on China and hope EU would do the same, tax the hell out of all polluting and tax-evading countries - that would definitely be a net benefit for the planet.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#40

Post by Hupriene »

jstanley wrote: post #9
CPLX wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's the farming community doing in Hong Kong, Macao, and Singapore?

Imposing tariffs on imports is classic protectionism - are you actually arguing that that is a net benefit? Of course the protected industries benefit from protectionism, the argument against protectionism is that everyone else loses. There is no reason that a transaction with a counterparty in Shanghai should incur any more taxes than an equivalent transaction with a counterparty in Manchester.

Protecting agriculture can also serve to reduce the impact that the war or large scale crop failures elsewhere in the world might bring. The resulting safety might be worth the market inefficiencies caused by tariffs.
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