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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#471
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even when a company places values over profits, it is still in an attempt to maximize profits over the long term. This might sound weird but some people (and companies) don't subscribe to the notion that money is the only thing that matters.

Well, a publicly traded company has the fiduciary obligation to make its shareholders money. So it really does not matter what the "the people" want, it matters what the shareholders want. In fact, the board and executive team are legally required to make the the decisions that make increase the value of the company. They could be in real trouble with the law if they knowingly do something that devalues the company.…

Nope.

Now if you give the impression that you are all bout money but don't act like it then shareholders can be rightfully upset. But if you clearly state your values and ambitions and shareholders don't like it? Then, sucks to be them! There is nothing more to it than that.

Serving shareholders’ “best interests” is not the same thing as either maximizing profits, or maximizing shareholder value. "Shareholder value," for one thing, is a vague objective: No single “shareholder value” can exist, because different shareholders have different values. Some are long-term investors planning to hold stock for years or decades; others are short-term speculators.

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-co...

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#472
TBH I am so divided on this. I did a little thought experiment over this and came up with two possible outcomes Negative: We live in a strange world where valuing morals limits our career opportunities. If I am a Google employee and I walk out now where does it end? If I am not a hypocrite I cannot work at Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Uber or even Apple. I am limiting where I can work and hence will have to settle for lesser wage. This will discourage people from speaking against wrong practices.

Positive: OTOH this activism has a potential to let companies know that some very smart people will not join you if your moral compass is faulty.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#474

> MRAP's are for combat, not police work While they were designed for combat, they are effectively the same thing that Brinks uses to transport money. They are meant to stop bad things from killing the people inside. They have 0 offensive weapons. They are entirely defensive vehicles that have been used to rescue downed officers, civilians in harms way (gunfire), and multiple times in natural disasters where other ve…

I'm going to go with the vets' opinion on this one.

If Brinks trucks do the same work, use Brinks trucks. They are civilian vehicles and all of the tasks you list are civilian tasks.

Militarization of the police force is a very, very, very bad idea.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#475
The painpoint is, they will do it anyways. Maybe not Google leadershipt but someone elses management. Google and Facebook have shown that we can execute power over datasizes that are too big for any group of humans to understand themselves, and they have shown that by manipulating these datasets they can manipulate human behaviour. This is too big a power to not fight over. That's bigger than the nuclear bomb. So the question is not whether or not it will happen, but who will be the first. The first might very well be the one deciding the new world order.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship in the EU is generally intended to protect individuals; censorship in China is meant to protect the ones doing the censoring. The EU has democratically elected governments; China is an authoritarian dictatorship. Those are differences in kind, not just degree.

You do see what you're saying right? Essentially, you're saying the government is responsible for the laws regarding censorship, not the businesses that operate there. If censorship existed in the USA, Google would have still started under it, and simply operated with that constraint. This is no different than operating in China. Google can't influence one way or another what censorship laws exist in China, currently…

Why would they have leverage? Oh no, Google is threatening to leave if we don't change our censorship policy, and if Google leaves - then what? Citizens get upset? I don't think that's exactly a strong motivator to the CCP. That's kind of the problem with dictatorships; you don't have to win elections.

>If censorship existed in the USA, Google would have still started under it, and simply operated with that constraint.

"If the US were just like China, we'd be in no position to criticize them" - sure, but it isn't. The USA and the PRC are not the same, and I don't think it's a relevant hypothetical.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#477
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, and not sure this is what OP's talking about, but I have examples. First, anything piracy related. Previously you could search something like "albumname zip rar torrent" and get vast lists of downloads. It's unclear whether the presence of scam links or the illegality of filesharing prompted the removal of valid results for this class of searches, but it's nonetheless true that this type of search returned us…

>"albumname zip rar torrent" Your complaint about their service is that they've made it more difficult for you to break the law?

That's an uncharitably reductionist take. Please refer to the original comment that started this thread.

> Certain words & phrases I know would produce legitimate useful search results in 2008 will now just pull pages of unrelated ads.

A person asked for examples. I delivered examples. I'm not contesting that the search is illegal in some jurisdictions. Merely pointing out that there are searches for which google used to return results with utility, and now intentionally do not return such results, and fall back to irrelevant suggestions.

Although the comment I made said more than what you implied it to, I will explicitly make the complaint you're mocking: Yes, I am unhappy that such results are censored. But it's not merely "I want free albums". I want to be able to search the internet. Not someone else's ideas of what the internet ought to be. It's a legally and ethically difficult problem, to be sure, but I think mocking the idea of supporting searches that the government dislikes is a step too far.

The Chinese and US governments' censorship regimes are not equivalent in magnitude, so it's not fair to compare them simply, but just as we can entertain the idea that the chinese are unfree in their searches for information, and as a result the breadth of what they can think about and experience, let's recognize that so too are we in the western world.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#478
post #166

I morally judge (not condemn) people who work at Google. If you can get a job at Google, you can get a job almost anywhere. There is tons of great work out there for you. People who work at Google are choosing to aid in the suppression of human freedom.

I assume you never buy any goods made in China, as that's also aid in the suppression of human freedom in your point.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#479
The employees willfully obstructing potential revenues and profits, and hence styming Google's market cap should put their money where their mouth is.

These employees should be willing to accept a 50% reduction in compensation ( salary, bonus, stocks, etc). That would at least reduce costs for Google that's being actively blocked from revenue streams other American & European companies (Bing, Amazon, etc) are already participating in.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#480
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shareholders do.

Doesn't matter. Shareholders must do their research. If they don't subscribe to the values then they can either not buy or suit themselves.

That is not how that works. A company -- with a few special exceptions and special charters -- ONLY goal is to increase value for this shareholders. A single shareholder with a non majority holding can sue if the company knowingly does something that causes the values of his shares to decrease -- even if the rest of the shareholders are okay with the loss because they agree with the sentiment.

There is some grey area along strategy short game vs long game, but a company's charter is to increase the value of its shareholders -- THE ONLY THING that literally matters for a publicly traded company*

* Some companies can be setup with a different charter that does not prioritize profit, but google and most of the publicly traded companies on the market today are not those. And it would be very hard to convert to such a company.

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