And if the employees placed thier values over profits, why are they still there?
I wonder if they are going to refuse their stock based compensation?
We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly
341–350 of 888 posts
Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly
#342When you chose to take 50% of your compensation in stock, you too have chosen to place company profits over company values.
How does that follow? If I benefit from a stock rising, that doesn't necessarily mean I value that benefit above all else.
Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly
#343Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Google can kick them out and replace within a month. Ah. A believer that software engineers are cogs and can just be “replaced” without training and learning of code bases. Hiring software engineers, bringing them up to speed, and having them contribute to production features, is expensive. Also, you’ll never truly recoup the lost knowledge that goes.
Google has literally thousands of engineers. A significant percentage of those engineers leave every year as part of normal attrition. Google is certainly capable of dealing with the fallout these folks leaving without feeling a thing. While it's true there are some "one-in-a-million" type engineers that work at Google, I don't see any of the well-known ones on this list. All that said, I commend the folks who signed…
Does a few engineers leaving hurt google? No. Does the massive PR storm that will never be erased from the Internet cause problems for them down the road? Absolutely.
The fact this is posted on HN and the regular gauntlet of tech sites is enough to have a major impact on their recruiting. I, like many of the people here, am a frequent target for Google recruiters and Dragonfly is more than enough for me to turn down an interview with them. Maybe they will have more luck with fresh college grads and interns who are less discerning.
Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly
#344I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me, but their decision to backtrack on their promise in China changed my mind. I do not morally condemn anyone who works at Google. I have many good friends that are both bright engineers and undeniably good people that work there. I just feel that as someone who's family is Taiwanese, I cannot in good consciousness support the company. I let t…
OTOH, AMZN and MSFT have never even hesitated to accommodate the Chinese govt's demands. Which other companies do you think would be more ethically conscious than GOOG in these circumstances? (I don't work there.)
Dont forget AAPL! (who hesitated, but ended up capitulating on the iCloud front).
I think the moral of the story here is that it's better to sell out from day 1 than to be seen as a hypocrite.
Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly
#345Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business. Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center"…
Thanks for standing up
Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly
#346Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> People who work at Google are choosing to aid in the suppression of human freedom. The fact that there's a large number of employees who signed this document provides great evidence to contradict this claim. It's kind of a blanket statement - I'm sure a bunch of the folks here on HN work at Google and are trying to do exactly the opposite. Heck, some of the people who signed off on this document could be HN'ers! Y…
Agreed with all your points here. Clearly from this letter and the opposition other projects have received at Google there are those inside the company actively working to influence change.
It's definitely true that part of the reason Google+ dropped its real names policy was internal employee activism, alongside external pressure.
Unfortunately, that reversal and Facebook's more weakly enforced continuation of the same old type of policy both went mostly unnoticed. (Yes, I realize G+ is going away for consumer accounts in August. This change was years ago.)
Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of all of the good and bad things that China is doing, underminding IP laws is probably the most beneficial to society. The best way for the world to improve is for all scientific and technology advancements to be freely available.
The way they undermine them also spreads authoritarianism, which is a side effect you may or may not be okay with.
You can literally make this argument anywhere.
Any good China does for its people or for other nations? That will just serve to legitimize their totalitarian government and encourage imitations abroad. Ergo it's bad.
In general it's better to state your fundamental premises at the beginning of the argument rather than reveal them midway through
Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
- if they're willing + if they're willing and able FTFY
Agreed. But this many Google employees acting collectively, including some very senior and long-tenured Googlers, meet that additional condition. (Disclosure: having worked at Google I know some names on that list personally, and respect them greatly. I haven't worked at Google since early 2015.)
But this was 139 out of 88K employees [1]. Doesn't seem like that many? How do we interpret the other 87K+?
[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/273744/number-of-full-ti...
Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or that they genuinely hold different views.
they hold different views? (they were born in China? they are brainwashed : no they can't possibly hold different views) It's futile to explain yourself to someone if the person will just declare you "brainwashed" if you don't agree with them
The thing is, ideas developed without free criticism are like programs without tests. (Only worse, because most programs aren't core to anyone's social identity, which puts extra pressure on the kind of ideas we're talking about here.)
I don't want to discount anyone's views, and it's not an all-or-nothing "they're brainwashed, ignore them", but to the extent the views were formed in a censored environment, I genuinely can't weigh them equally as evidence. Censorship is corrosive.
Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly
#350I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me, but their decision to backtrack on their promise in China changed my mind. I do not morally condemn anyone who works at Google. I have many good friends that are both bright engineers and undeniably good people that work there. I just feel that as someone who's family is Taiwanese, I cannot in good consciousness support the company. I let t…
I, too, had a very similar experience. Although I am of Indian descent, I still strongly agree with your views. It's really unfortunate that the leadership at Google doesn't follow the "do no evil" mantra anymore. These sorts of decisions aren't in the hands of an every-day engineer, so they are not at fault here in my opinion. And by standing up and vocalizing that distaste, I believe they are doing the right thing. Google makes some amazing products, so I see the appeal of working there. But many of those engineers have been around before the company started going in this direction, so I can't blame them. It's the leadership that needs to understand values > profits. At least if they want my continued support.