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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#331

Post by oceanplexian »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #118
patrickaljord wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is already censoring specific searches all over the world, in the EU for example, the right to be forgotten and many "hate speech" laws already force google to censor many sites that are filtered out.

Censorship in the EU is generally intended to protect individuals; censorship in China is meant to protect the ones doing the censoring. The EU has democratically elected governments; China is an authoritarian dictatorship. Those are differences in kind, not just degree.

I'm sure the Chinese would say exactly the same thing that the EU does about their system; it "protects" individuals from what they don't need to know.

Comments like this make me glad I live in the USA. We don't discriminate on what types of censorship are acceptable or not. Less extraordinary exceptions (Child pornography, Libel), any censorship is in violation of our constitution and most closely held core values.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#332

Post by apostacy »

tokai wrote: post #124
komali2 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, good for y'all for sticking to your values. How did you argue against the inevitable "if we don't take this contract, dude across the street will"?

>How did you argue against the inevitable "if we don't take this contract, dude across the street will"? Collective action. They can hire 14 new guys, but they won't have any to instruct the new employees in their work.

Google is well aware of the spyware that the Chinese govt is using to oppress it's ethnic minorities, but they don't lift a finger to thwart it. They don't blacklist the app that the government requires Muslims in Xinjiang to have on their phones at all time[1]. They could easily blacklist it.

How far is Google willing to go to be friends with China? Mass detainment and ethnic cleansing are well within the realm of possibility, especially in the likely event of an economic crisis.

Will Google help sniff out their Anne Franks? Imagine trying to operate an underground railroad against the full force of Google. There are so many ways that machine learning and modern private surveillance can determine things like if there are extra uncounted people living in an area.

If Beijing did decide to solve the Uyghur problem, would Google cover for them and purge search queries?

No, this is not at all hyperbolic or reaching. American corporations did business with our enemies right up until they were forced to stop during WWII. American machines have been used to commit horrific atrocities. And read Chinese history. Read about what China has done as recently as a few decades ago.

I'm glad to see Google employees taking a break from their virtue pageantry to actually take a stand on something that matters, finally.

[1]: https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turn...

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#333

Post by bad_user »

Aunche wrote: post #311
quest88 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypothetically: Google starts making tons of cash from China. China threatens to cut off the cash-flow if certain results aren't removed from search results outside of China (or something similar). We'd like to think Google wouldn't do this just for the money, but Dragonfly sets precedent that it would do something just for the money.

If Google makes enough money from China, they would have as much leverage against China as China has against it. The resulting social unrest caused by a major search engine disappearing in China would far exceed any benefit they would get from censoring other countries. In my opinion, it's much more dangerous to allow Chinese tech companies to have a free monopoly without any resistance.

> The resulting social unrest caused by a major search engine disappearing in China

There was no social unrest in China when Google pulled out and I’m pretty sure that in the scenario you’re describing, the Chinese wouldn’t give a fuck.

I mean they have had plenty of reasons for social unrest thus far, far better reasons actually and it did not happen.

> it's much more dangerous to allow Chinese tech companies to have a free monopoly without any resistance.

Seriously? Why?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#335

Post by DINKDINK »

nimbius wrote: post #33

Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business. Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center"…

Thank you for committing yourself to non-aggression.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#336

Post by ultrasounder »

alangibson wrote: post #97
nimbius wrote: post #33

Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business. Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center"…

You deserve massive credit for striking a blow against this madness. A great example of how working people have more power than they think if they're willing to risk dollars and cents for matters of right and wrong. I say that fully realizing that not everyone is in the financial position where they can risk a fight with their employer. You can't expect everyone to be Ghandi.

"You can't expect everyone to be Ghandi.". You meant Gandhi.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#337

Post by geezerjay »

patrickaljord wrote: post #66
alexandercrohde wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the more reason to take a stand right now.

Why single out China though? If Google had to stop doing business in any country that forces it to censor stuff, they would not be allowed anywhere, I think even the US forces them to filter out illegal gambling. Where does it stop?

> Why single out China though?

It's literally both the biggest player and the biggest threat to freedom in the world.

That's a good place to start.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#338

Post by oh_sigh »

educationdata wrote: post #10

There are not many Chinese names in the signed letter, and I can fully understand. If you are a Chinese H1B or green card holder, and you signed this letter, it is almost certain the Chinese government will contact your family in China.

another possibility is that a lot of Chinese googlers wanted dragonfly to continue because they think that even a sensored Google search would be beneficial for the people of China.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#339

Post by giobox »

lostgame wrote: post #251
Puer wrote: post #38

I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me, but their decision to backtrack on their promise in China changed my mind. I do not morally condemn anyone who works at Google. I have many good friends that are both bright engineers and undeniably good people that work there. I just feel that as someone who's family is Taiwanese, I cannot in good consciousness support the company. I let t…

Good for you, for real. It takes a lot sometimes to stand up against something that a lot of other people would jump for the chance to do. While I think the average developer has a more negative opinion of Google these days, for years they have been considered one of the best places to work in the world. I know if I told my parents, for instance, I had done what you did, they probably would've called me an idiot. :P…

> Good for you, for real. It takes a lot sometimes to stand up against something that a lot of other people would jump for the chance to do.

While it is a nice enough gesture, let's not kid ourselves that this was some difficult selfless act on the part of the OP. Apologies to the OP if I have misinterpreted their earlier post but:

> I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me

This statement often becomes true by virtue of having a reasonable computer science qualification and living in the Bay Area - eventually a recruiter for a FAANG style company is going to spam you with an email. Actually converting an outreach from a recruiter to you know, an actual concrete job offer at Google, is another matter entirely.

If declining recruiters is the new (very low!) bar for high minded civic engagement, I'm accidentally a grizzled activist on the front line.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#340

Post by senderista »

Benjammer wrote: post #314
projectramo wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be cynical, but did another company take over that work for them? Did the police get their MRAPs?

This is a problem that my employer faces. We have a strong concept of corporate responsibility, and plenty of opportunity for employee pushback, but we repeatedly see our decisions simply subverted by competitors who don't have any sense of morals and just go where the money is. It becomes a nasty tradeoff where you think about building/doing things that don't feel good, just to maintain a position to have a positive…

Hence regulation.
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