Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 82 posts

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#21

Post by vtange »

hirundo wrote: post #18

> All men are created equal. - U.S. Declaration of Independence The above statement is false. That's more clear than ever and geno-economics contributes to that clarity. If you live your life by this assumption you will get many important things wrong. Yet this clearly wrong statement, as applied to the operation of the rule of law, is also one of the most brilliant, important and useful concepts invented by civiliza…

That line is taken out of context a lot - the Declaration of Independence does not try to assert that all humans are equal in ability, its main focus was to state that all humans have equal rights to their life, liberty and freedom to pursue happiness. That means that even if a human is weaker, or even disabled, he or she still has equal rights to a human who is in good health.

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#22

Post by natalyarostova »

osazuwa wrote: post #14

Boy I can't wait for Eugenics 2.0! I'm sure it will be better the second time around.

I suspect it will be. We are already detecting genetic illnesses, and most of the scientists working on these problems with the goal of bettering human existence.

I won't make any assumptions about you, but I've suffered due to the poorly constructed features of the human genetic structure failing. My life would be much better if those could be fixed.

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#23

Post by TangoTrotFox »

shubb wrote: post #11
hirundo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can also tell you how much you are likely to inherit and what network of people you are linked to as well. Only to the extent that your parents have the same DNA. The point is that economic success is strongly correlated to genetics independently of social position and nurturing. Of course this will be controversial; it's the same kind of conclusion that spurred the Soviet Union to promote Lysenkoism and suppres…

Here in the UK, about 1000 years ago, the French invaded and took over, siezing control of the (basically German) population by replacing the top level of society. Suddely, the lords were French and the serfs were German. 1000 years later, you can predict someones socio-economic level by surname. French surnames do better than German ones. Surnames linked by blood to royalty do better than both. 1000 years. Lack of s…

Like many things here though there's a chicken and egg type scenario. Society mostly started with increasingly isolated tribal groups. Over time, and lots of killing, the most successful groups started to form into larger and larger groups. And the most successful individuals among these most successful groups were in turn on top of the top. At some point leadership implied what was an extremely high probability of a genetic advantage. And that advantage can persist through the centuries. It can also deteriorate.

A great example of this is the House of Habsburg. [1] They were one of the most powerful families in history completely dominating Europe politics with lineages of kings and emperors throughout the entire continent for some 5 centuries, including holding the throne of the Holy Roman Empire for more than 300 years. But the reason they're an interesting example is because they're also the namesake of the Habsburg Jaw - a genetic deformity that was greatly exaggerated in the family through the years due to excessive inbreeding. If you've seen a cartoon depiction of royalty they often are drawn with the extreme protruding chin, which is a reference to this deformity and family in particular.

That family was almost certainly extremely genetically fit at one point. But through excessive inbreeding they destroyed their own genetic lineage. In Spain this was especially pronounced with Charles II. [2] He was described as "short, lame, epileptic, senile, and bald before 35." He learned to talk at age 4, walk at 8. His Habsburg Jaw was so extreme he could not chew his own food. He, unsurprisingly, died childless at the age of 35 - ending 200 years of Habsburg rule in Spain. And to emphasize -- this is just one example. This family did not just rule Spain. They had lasting dynasties in Germany, Hungary, Croatia, England, Boehmia, Ireland, Portugal, and many other nations.

Today, the entire house of Habsburg is extinct.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Habsburg

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#24

Post by you_owe_me »

natalyarostova wrote: post #22
osazuwa wrote: post #14

Boy I can't wait for Eugenics 2.0! I'm sure it will be better the second time around.

I suspect it will be. We are already detecting genetic illnesses, and most of the scientists working on these problems with the goal of bettering human existence. I won't make any assumptions about you, but I've suffered due to the poorly constructed features of the human genetic structure failing. My life would be much better if those could be fixed.

Same here. I was born ugly, so bring on genetic enhancement

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#25

Post by asianthrowaway »

nyrulez wrote: post #8

Unless we have a complete picture of "success", which means: - How much of our behavior, habits, intelligence and success comes from the environment ? - How much of stuff like education levels, income levels come from birth, social and environmental factors? - How epigenetics shapes our life in a dynamic fashion? This field is pretty new, and we have just begin to understand it. - What is intelligence or success in t…

Points 1 2 and 4 are pretty well studied in academia concerning intelligence. Intelligence is defined as "g", and it's 60 to 80% heritable depending on the study (leaning towards 80%).

More info for the curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics)

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#26

Post by olliej »

To an extent that’s true - genetics can detect your race and gender, both of which have a very strong correlation (although definitely not causation) with success.

That said ever since we have been able to run genetic tests people have tried to use them to demonstrate that group A is “worse” than everyone else, or the group B is superior. Before that they tried to use phrenology. In every case they successfully came up with a measurement that demonstrated that some group was inferior.

Weirdly the measurements confirmed stereotypes of the time, it’s almost like there was some kind of external bias effecting their results...

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#27

Post by nonbel »

Combining GWAS data with social science... sounds like a recipe for generating incorrect conclusions from noise to me.

>"before the Human Genome Project had fully sequenced human DNA"

The human genome is still not complete by any normal definition, they just redefined "complete" to mean "we did our best". It is like if someone turns in homework with only half the questions answered and argues they should get 100% since they "completed" it.

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#28

Post by asianthrowaway »

osazuwa wrote: post #14

Boy I can't wait for Eugenics 2.0! I'm sure it will be better the second time around.

Hypothetical situation: if there was devised a cheap and easy to administer "genetic IQ test", would you oppose an NGO whose mission statement would be to administer this test to low income inner city kids, and offer scholarships or vouchers to good schools to those exhibiting the highest "genetic IQ"?

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#29

Post by crimsonalucard »

vtange wrote: post #21
hirundo wrote: post #18

> All men are created equal. - U.S. Declaration of Independence The above statement is false. That's more clear than ever and geno-economics contributes to that clarity. If you live your life by this assumption you will get many important things wrong. Yet this clearly wrong statement, as applied to the operation of the rule of law, is also one of the most brilliant, important and useful concepts invented by civiliza…

That line is taken out of context a lot - the Declaration of Independence does not try to assert that all humans are equal in ability, its main focus was to state that all humans have equal rights to their life, liberty and freedom to pursue happiness. That means that even if a human is weaker, or even disabled, he or she still has equal rights to a human who is in good health.

Also, originally it only referred to men as in human of the male sex.

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#30

Post by pault »

you_owe_me wrote: post #24
natalyarostova wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect it will be. We are already detecting genetic illnesses, and most of the scientists working on these problems with the goal of bettering human existence. I won't make any assumptions about you, but I've suffered due to the poorly constructed features of the human genetic structure failing. My life would be much better if those could be fixed.

Same here. I was born ugly, so bring on genetic enhancement

I'm not sure if you're joking or not (it did make me chuckle), but as dystopian as it sounds, I would prefer to live in a world where everyone is beautiful, since it would eliminate barriers for less attractive folks, and eliminate advantages for the more attractive ones. Of course, if we do ever learn how to change our physical appearance with genetics, the fashion industry will just change the definition of "beautiful" every five years anyway.
Post reply on HN