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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#221

Post by metalchianti »

lostgame wrote: post #183
grecy wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty bold It's interesting you would label this as such. In what is ostensibly the best country in the world, and a massive proponent of free speech and human rights, you think it's bold to write a letter on the internet to your extraordinarily famous employer? If it's considered bold in the USA involving Google, I shudder to think about anyone else doing this anywhere else. In the year 2018 I would hope it's ver…

>> a massive proponent of free speech and human rights Yeah, 'human rights', right, so that's why they're so[1] focused[2] on separating families[3], and I guess 'free speech' is what allows the POTUS to be a racist[4], fear-mongering, corrupt[5] liar[6]? Or is 'free speech' the thing that allows denial[7] of climate change[8] even while California burns to the ground? And I guess with 'human rights' that goes along…

It seems like your anti-Trump sentiment is serving as a heuristic for general anti-Americanism. The reality is far from this. The US scores high on list of freedom indices[1] and HDI[2].

So yes, the consequences of making a "bold" statement from a 6-figure tech job in the US will be different than taking similar actions in less developed places. Don't let your hatred of Trump bias you.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices#List_b... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#2018_H...

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#222

Post by lostgame »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #207
lostgame wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> a massive proponent of free speech and human rights Yeah, 'human rights', right, so that's why they're so[1] focused[2] on separating families[3], and I guess 'free speech' is what allows the POTUS to be a racist[4], fear-mongering, corrupt[5] liar[6]? Or is 'free speech' the thing that allows denial[7] of climate change[8] even while California burns to the ground? And I guess with 'human rights' that goes along…

This is a bit older, but it's a citation: http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/multimedia/video/2008/wallace/from... > You said: "There has never been a better society than in the United States in 1958." What do you mean by that? > FROMM: Well, I mean it, of course, in relative terms. The history of man so far is nothing to brag about, from the standpoint of our ideas--and what I mean is, that in comparison with most other soci…

[flagged]

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#223

Post by [deleted] »

fzss_ wrote: post #213

Hypocrites. Have you considered the human rights of Chinese users? Thanks to the absence of Google, monopoly of Baidu has enabled them to sell ads of unlicensed hospital that literally kills people. A censored version of Google in Chinese will undoubtedly improve the quality of life of Chinese Internet users.

[deleted]

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#224

Post by hueving »

lostgame wrote: post #183
grecy wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty bold It's interesting you would label this as such. In what is ostensibly the best country in the world, and a massive proponent of free speech and human rights, you think it's bold to write a letter on the internet to your extraordinarily famous employer? If it's considered bold in the USA involving Google, I shudder to think about anyone else doing this anywhere else. In the year 2018 I would hope it's ver…

>> a massive proponent of free speech and human rights Yeah, 'human rights', right, so that's why they're so[1] focused[2] on separating families[3], and I guess 'free speech' is what allows the POTUS to be a racist[4], fear-mongering, corrupt[5] liar[6]? Or is 'free speech' the thing that allows denial[7] of climate change[8] even while California burns to the ground? And I guess with 'human rights' that goes along…

Nobody is "focused on separating families" and if you think so you've just fallen victim to divisive propaganda.

I'm not sure why you scare quote free speech and then use an example of free speech to somehow disprove free speech. Free speech isn't supposed to be just for propagating popular ideas, that's the entire point FFS.

>And I guess with 'human rights' that goes along with the USA's tendency to start senseless[9] wars[10] over oil

Ugh, what a boring and incorrect trope. The wars are not about oil, oil companies aren't the ones making money off of them. Show us all of the successful US oil companies in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. Additionally, the US produces enough domestic oil that it makes no sense to go after conflict oil even if that was a thing.

Finally, your whole post smacks of whataboutism. Pointing out shortcomings does not mean the US isn't leaps and bounds ahead of China/Russia/etc in human rights. Try running a newspaper truly critical of the government in China or Russia and then you'll see why 'free speech' matters.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#225

Post by randcraw »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #168
tokai wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How did you argue against the inevitable "if we don't take this contract, dude across the street will"? Collective action. They can hire 14 new guys, but they won't have any to instruct the new employees in their work.

While I’d like to try and agree... I think you may be missing a sense of scale and the reality of just how replaceable people are... even magically-gifted google employees.

Negotiations like these aren't won by convincing the other side through making more points via logic or evidence. You must help decision makers to realize that their choice is not win-win, that hidden costs, unwanted consequences, or just plain bad publicity await. Almost always, bureaucrat decisions are driven more by fear of failure than prospect of success. As a naysayer, your goal is mostly to spread FUD and take the shine off their bauble.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#226

Post by cloudwalking »

patrickaljord wrote: post #9

If I was in China and had to choose between having a choice between censored baidu and censored google vs just censored baidu, I'd rather have both baidu and google. It's easy for us here in the western world as we have access to both and more uncensored sources to take the moral high ground and subject the Chinese to a "let them eat cake" attitude. Not sure if this will benefit people over there though to ban google…

I have to agree with this. Some search is better than no search. Not everything can be censored and people WILL find information they are not supposed to find, just with more digging than in the rest of the world. Saying that Google should not provide any search product in China is shortsighted and purely ideological.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#227

Post by driverdan »

jriot wrote: post #204
bluejekyll wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google can kick them out and replace within a month. Ah. A believer that software engineers are cogs and can just be “replaced” without training and learning of code bases. Hiring software engineers, bringing them up to speed, and having them contribute to production features, is expensive. Also, you’ll never truly recoup the lost knowledge that goes.

Everyone is replaceable.

Of course but there are significant costs for replacement.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#228

Post by yiwang110 »

fzss_ wrote: post #213

Hypocrites. Have you considered the human rights of Chinese users? Thanks to the absence of Google, monopoly of Baidu has enabled them to sell ads of unlicensed hospital that literally kills people. A censored version of Google in Chinese will undoubtedly improve the quality of life of Chinese Internet users.

this ^^^^

and where are the protesters when last year Google fired an engineer who wrote a memo questioning women in tech?

I bet those who signed think FaLunDaFa is a legitimate religion.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#229

Post by cloudwalking »

patrickaljord wrote: post #26
fghtr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why do you need two censored search engines? What would be the difference between them?

Google is technically superior to baidu in many areas, specially for a developers. It gives better answers in many subjects, not just the censored ones. Besides who are we to decide for the Chinese what is best for them? Sounds a bit condescending and paternalistic. Here here, baidu is enough for you to play with, don't bother with google.

Also, Baidu is completely in the pocket of the Chinese government. They are happy to censor anything and everything they're asked. Google is not beholden in this way and will censor the minimum amount possible.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#230

Post by [deleted] »

nimbius wrote: post #33

Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business. Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center"…

[deleted]
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