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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#191

Post by virmundi »

Varcht wrote: post #146
patrickaljord wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is technically superior to baidu in many areas, specially for a developers. It gives better answers in many subjects, not just the censored ones. Besides who are we to decide for the Chinese what is best for them? Sounds a bit condescending and paternalistic. Here here, baidu is enough for you to play with, don't bother with google.

> Besides who are we to decide for the Chinese what is best for them? You do realize that the "people" do not have a voice in China right? It is not a democracy...

The Chinese appear to think, collectively, that authoritarianism is better than democracy. They could revolt. The Chinese military is under funded with failing equipment, though they are trying to improve in areas. The sheer size of their military makes it difficult to have common weapons and gear available. 100 million citizens throwing themselves against that machine, would wear it down quickly. They don't do this.

The Chinese had a century or more of bloody civil war recently, within historical terms. They don't like regime change.

They historically were fine under the emperor, who was authoritarian. They are use to autocratic, central government. Unless things get extremely bad, I don't see them thinking that democracy is better than their current stability. If Xi Jinping does a decent job of getting rid of corruption and improving the air quality, I doubt you'll see a revolt even with a depression in China.

Edit: for those downvoting, how about a dialog? Democracy is not a native idea for the Chinese. Their major philosophical systems support a rigid hierarchy, which is not compatible with the democratic norm of anyone can attempt to run for office. They've lost millions to wars before Mao calmed everyone down. Even with Mao's major famine, there wasn't a revolt. 45 million died, and no uprising. If 100k died at the hands of the US government, there would be blood in the streets. Probably true with 1k. The Chinese do not care about authoritarianism.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#192

Post by barry-cotter »

schalab wrote: post #91
hnphillipj wrote: post #47

Given how trash of a search engine Baidu is, Google would likely achieve market share dominance in China within a couple years - should they move forward with Dragonfly. Complying with demands of the Chinese gov't is the only way they can penetrate the Chinese market. Search engine advertising constitutes close to 85% of Google's revenue. And unlike Project Maven, which was ended due to internal resistance from emplo…

Why dont western companies band together and threaten a boycott until some kind of IP laws are enforced? They just keep getting picked off one by one.

Because coordination problems are really hard and that’s what governments and the WTO are for. Also, I’d be very surprised if that kind of coordination didn’t bring national competition authorities down like a hammer on all participants.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#193

Post by aibrahem »

mtgx wrote: post #148
aibrahem wrote: post #136

As someone who lived most of his life in a dictatorship, I really struggle to understand the logic of these employees. I was actually surprised Google stepped out of China a couple of years ago and felt like the decision was taken by a bunch of people who don't understand what it's like to live in a non-democratic country. Do they think that everybody in China cares that their internet is censored or that they're bei…

>It's not like a person who's opposing the Chinese government online is going to be using Google without a secure connection anyway How can you say something like that? What does "oppose" mean to you exactly? Being the leader of a 1 million-strong protest group? If so, then yeah, I would expect such people to be very careful about how they protest online. But everyone else? Come on. Most people, even most dissidents,…

> The vast majority of people aren't infosec experts.

Although this is true my personal experience is that in non-democratic societies there is a huge overlap between people who are tech-savvy and dissenters, you just don't pump into an article about the Tiananmen Square massacre, you actively seek it and you understand the risk behind looking for something like this.

I'm not saying they're world-class experts but they'll at least know to use a VPN.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#194

Post by grecy »

lostgame wrote: post #183
grecy wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty bold It's interesting you would label this as such. In what is ostensibly the best country in the world, and a massive proponent of free speech and human rights, you think it's bold to write a letter on the internet to your extraordinarily famous employer? If it's considered bold in the USA involving Google, I shudder to think about anyone else doing this anywhere else. In the year 2018 I would hope it's ver…

>> a massive proponent of free speech and human rights Yeah, 'human rights', right, so that's why they're so[1] focused[2] on separating families[3], and I guess 'free speech' is what allows the POTUS to be a racist[4], fear-mongering, corrupt[5] liar[6]? Or is 'free speech' the thing that allows denial[7] of climate change[8] even while California burns to the ground? And I guess with 'human rights' that goes along…

Ostensibly is defined as:

"As appears or is stated to be true, though not necessarily so; apparently."

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#197

Post by porphyrogene »

lostgame wrote: post #183
grecy wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty bold It's interesting you would label this as such. In what is ostensibly the best country in the world, and a massive proponent of free speech and human rights, you think it's bold to write a letter on the internet to your extraordinarily famous employer? If it's considered bold in the USA involving Google, I shudder to think about anyone else doing this anywhere else. In the year 2018 I would hope it's ver…

>> a massive proponent of free speech and human rights Yeah, 'human rights', right, so that's why they're so[1] focused[2] on separating families[3], and I guess 'free speech' is what allows the POTUS to be a racist[4], fear-mongering, corrupt[5] liar[6]? Or is 'free speech' the thing that allows denial[7] of climate change[8] even while California burns to the ground? And I guess with 'human rights' that goes along…

‘Ostensibly’ does not mean what you think it means.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#198

Post by misiti3780 »

jgrahamc wrote: post #170
misiti3780 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great story - random question --- but how did you find out about HN? (I'm just asking because you implied you don't work in software, etc.)

Well, his profile says... "Linux fan".

ah i missed that. thanks

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#199

Post by Nasrudith »

Really the Chinese market seems to be a greed trap. Companies drool over themselves at the prospect of the second largest economy, compromise themselves and harm existing sales only to find that China isn't a greenfield market like they arrogantly expected and if there wasn't already a local competitor there will be soon.
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