Live data from Hacker News

Successful second round of fusion experiments with Wendelstein 7-X

ipp.mpg.de

121–130 of 223 posts

Re: Successful second round of fusion experiments with Wendelstein 7-X

#121
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Stellerator, or any of its descendants, turn out to be the answer to practical fusion, it would have been contingent on vast quantities of computational power being available cheaply. It does not matter how much money you poured into your Stellerator project in 1970, you could never have built the 7-X, because there would have been no way to produce that design in the first place. Personally, I think one of th…

Pouring in money advances computation. Microprocessors were a direct result of the space race and space weapons systems. No other industry would have justified the trillions of dollars in investment that was required to fit advanced computers into a small space when mainframe systems did the job just fine. Missiles and spaceships required systems that could calculate trajectories and be small enough to launch into sp…

>> when mainframe systems did the job just fine.

Didn't people see the value that cheaper/more compute power will give them back than ?

Re: Successful second round of fusion experiments with Wendelstein 7-X

#122

"Although Wendelstein 7-X is not designed to generate energy, the device is intended to prove that stellarators are suitable for use in power stations. With Wendelstein 7-X the intention is to achieve for the first time in a stellarator the quality of confinement afforded by competing devices of the tokamak type." This was at the very end. While competition is certainly a positive, this doesn't sound like they're int…

Nobody knows if it's easier to build a commercial fusion power plant with the tokamak design or with the stellarator design or with another of less known competing designs or with another design that nobody has imagined yet. Moreover, perhaps some of these design (including thetokamak and stellarator) perhaps are nice for a lab demo or a model plant that doesn't break even or a tiny scale plant, but they may not scal…

Agreed — the problem is that, from an energy perspective, it "doesn't break even".

Zach Hartwig of MIT has an excellent video [0] of how to evaluate announcements of nuclear fusion advances. The big problem is breaking even. There are other problem, too: plasma containment, etc.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0KuAx1COEk

Re: Successful second round of fusion experiments with Wendelstein 7-X

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company like Apple has a quarter trillion in cash laying around, they could jump start fusion and control near-limitless energy in several decades. I wish there was more of a visionary drive among institutions for intellectual curiosity and pushing the boundaries of humankind. And yes, I know why they don't... shareholders business plans risk blah blah blah. Reality is just so BORING. Maybe one day we'll find a way…

They just made the Macbook 3mm thinner. That should count for something.

> That should count for something.

It does. You jest, but competition is fierce and little things matter; also, sometimes making even a small improvement require a technological breakthrough.

Re: Successful second round of fusion experiments with Wendelstein 7-X

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company like Apple has a quarter trillion in cash laying around, they could jump start fusion and control near-limitless energy in several decades. I wish there was more of a visionary drive among institutions for intellectual curiosity and pushing the boundaries of humankind. And yes, I know why they don't... shareholders business plans risk blah blah blah. Reality is just so BORING. Maybe one day we'll find a way…

It is odd that you mention this, unless your name is Karl and were at lunch last Wednesday :-), because it came up as something that companies with big cash hoards might actually be thinking about. Consider the notion that at some point a feasible fusion power plant design becomes "known". Then its a question of money to build one or two or 10. And a company like Google or Apple, with a large cash hoard could jump in…

Maybe for companies, to aim for fusion is asking too much.

But what about a commercial "DARPA" ?

I'm guessing that the innovations created by DARPA are a very good ROI in the value sense. If not, what is?

But like Xerox-Parc, the fear is that extracting money from that won't go well.

So one solution is creating a monopoly. But that's not ideal.

But what about some sort of insurance ? How would history look if Xerox-Parc was guarranteed to at-least break even?

Re: Successful second round of fusion experiments with Wendelstein 7-X

#125

I love these guys, steadily working through the issues, making steady progress. I think with a slightly different diverter design they could claim to have the worlds first plasma cannon :-). Pretty insanely complex machine, and really awesome results. Congrats!

This is what I find impressive as well.

They have this absurd shape, because the algorithm says it works, and they say it contains plasma. It does.

They say they will test this to hold 10 - 12 seconds of plasma. It does.

They say they will work on this and expand this to hold 30 seconds of plasma. It does.

This just feels like really solid engineering or practical science. Those 30 minutes will happen without much delay.

Re: Successful second round of fusion experiments with Wendelstein 7-X

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point was not that a company like Apple ought to invest their billions into ongoing fusion research, indeed the exact opposite: it might be more rational for a company like Apple to hide their billions under a mattress, so that they can make a single, economy-controlling investment on the very same day that profitable fusion power becomes merely a problem of capital.

on the very same day that profitable fusion power becomes merely a problem of capital. Wouldn't that be too late? Or, put it this way: it is already a problem of capital. If you have enough, you can explore all technology tree branches till finding the one that leads you to it, even in parallel.

There's no guarantee that any of the technology tree branches have profitable fusion power in them. I'm reasonably confident that controlled fusion with net energy gain is technologically possible. Determining whether it can be profitable is a lot harder. Profitability depends on what every other competitor can do, as well as what your own technology can do. That's why extremely well-proven technologies like coal-fired electrical generators can become unprofitable when competing technologies improve.

If there were a global carbon tax, it would give fusion an advantage against fossil fuels, but that would also be to the advantage of fission and renewables. In the absence of a global carbon tax, is fusion going to be cheap enough to displace fossil fueled power? We've had the technology for emissions-free electricity for decades, but it's difficult to profitably compete with fossil-based generators enjoying unpriced externalities.

Re: Successful second round of fusion experiments with Wendelstein 7-X

#127
post #45
post #3

Experiments like Wendelstein remind me that the only thing holding back fusion power is money for research like this. Every year, we spend billions on fossil fuel exploration because the return on investment is quick - just think about all the wells going in to extract shale oil. What if we collectively had the will to invest this much into fusion?

If the Stellerator, or any of its descendants, turn out to be the answer to practical fusion, it would have been contingent on vast quantities of computational power being available cheaply. It does not matter how much money you poured into your Stellerator project in 1970, you could never have built the 7-X, because there would have been no way to produce that design in the first place. Personally, I think one of th…

> Personally, I think one of the answers to "tech seems to have stalled" is that it's easy to underestimate how important cheap computational power is, even without "AI", to moving forward. For another example, as fantastic as the 1960s space projects may have been, I think they just weren't economically sustainable, so it isn't that amazing that they didn't become a self-sustaining industry right away.

I think it's also possible that technological process happens in fits and starts instead of at a continuous or even a continuously changing rate. Often there's an individual discovery that leads to a spurt of innovation that consists mostly of applying that singular discovery to different problems.

For example:

* The late 19th and early 20th century saw very fast innovation in vaccines and antibiotics, because the discovery of effective vaccines and antibiotics was general enough to solve entire classes of problems all at once. It seems like a lot of innovations all at once when you manage to find extremely effective treatments against polio, smallpox, measles, syphilis, chlamydia, typhus, typhoid, tuberculosis, etc., etc., etc., but really that was just from a couple of extremely general inventions playing themselves out.

* Steam engines led to large-scale mechanization while electrical power led to small-scale mechanization in two relatively fast and concentrated chunks. In both cases, the invention of a general technique for powering machines led to lots and lots and lots of machines.

* Marconi's wireless telegraph was invented in 1896, leading to different varieties of radio, television, and radar.

* Airplanes might be another example. I don't want to dismiss the huge difference between a Wright Flyer and a Boeing 737, but "make the airplane out of aluminum" and "have a tube that the crew and passengers can be inside of" are both pretty obvious improvements once you've figured out large-scale manufacturing and the Bayer process, both of which we had ahead of time. I guess jet engines were another breakthrough, although we kind of had them already and they're basically just rockets except they consume oxidizer from the air instead of carrying their own.

* Rockets. There were less than three decades between the V-2 and the moon because it turns out "building a big rocket" is the hard part. OK, there are a lot of other hard parts to landing on the moon, but they're hard in the way that they're achievable by any sufficiently well-funded and motivated group of people with rockets, but nearly impossible without rockets. As you point out, Falcon 9 is significantly more advanced in certain ways than Saturn V, but the low-hanging fruit was reaped by Werner von Braun.

* Computers: just like the Saturn V is basically a very, very, very large V-2 and so is the Falcon 9, we're basically using very, very, very large (logically large; physically small) versions of the computers we had in the 1970's. The fundamental discoveries in computing are all basically done; the rest is just playing itself out. The reason it seemed to take longer to play itself out is because computers are a self-compounding invention: you can use computers to design computers, and you can use better computers to design better computers. Also, having computers makes a lot of other things easier, so you get a lot of innovation from that, too.

Fusion, promisingly enough, also seems to be one of those technologies that will just unlock a bunch of really, really powerful innovations, seemingly all at once, because of how many problems we could solve by just throwing lots and lots and lots of energy at them. (Some discussion here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pmgr6FtYcY . Also, the excellent book "Sustainable Energy - without the hot air" develops rough upper bounds on the amount of sustainable energy that the UK could produce and the amount of energy the UK consumes, ultimately leading to the bar graph Figure 18.1 here: https://www.withouthotair.com/c18/page_103.shtml. Later discussion of nuclear fusion places the same bar graph, to scale, next to the sustainable level of fusion power production on Figure 24.17 here: https://www.withouthotair.com/c24/page_173.shtml.)

Re: Successful second round of fusion experiments with Wendelstein 7-X

#128
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err no, money is not "the only thing" keeping us from having fusion power. I can think of one other thing which is that it's damn hard to create stellar-core conditions inside of a small containment vessel on Earth. It's not obvious that throwing more money at the problem is going to change this. After all, fusion research has been funded in some form or another since the 1950s. I'll bet if you added up all the resea…

Just for the record, you don't re-create stellar-core conditions with earth-bound fusion devices: We don't have the means, and the yield would suck. Now, it is true that there's still fundamental research to be done until energy production via nuclear fusion becomes a reality, but we're reasonably confident that we could make the conventional approaches work. However, that research is Big Science, and there's no poli…

>Just for the record, you don't re-create stellar-core conditions with earth-bound fusion devices: We don't have the means, and the yield would suck.

See Inertial Confinement Fusion, The NIF, High-Energy-Density Physics, etc.

Re: Successful second round of fusion experiments with Wendelstein 7-X

#129
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pouring in money advances computation. Microprocessors were a direct result of the space race and space weapons systems. No other industry would have justified the trillions of dollars in investment that was required to fit advanced computers into a small space when mainframe systems did the job just fine. Missiles and spaceships required systems that could calculate trajectories and be small enough to launch into sp…

>> when mainframe systems did the job just fine. Didn't people see the value that cheaper/more compute power will give them back than ?

It was only really used for big expensive projects where the expense of the mainframe computer was a small part of the budget, so no.

Re: Successful second round of fusion experiments with Wendelstein 7-X

#130
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pouring in money advances computation. Microprocessors were a direct result of the space race and space weapons systems. No other industry would have justified the trillions of dollars in investment that was required to fit advanced computers into a small space when mainframe systems did the job just fine. Missiles and spaceships required systems that could calculate trajectories and be small enough to launch into sp…

>> when mainframe systems did the job just fine. Didn't people see the value that cheaper/more compute power will give them back than ?

Not that long ago (1980's?) it was said that no one really needed a personal computer, and that no one would buy one.
Post reply on HN