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Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

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Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess Obama never met people like Fabrice Bellard or John Carmack.

I bet John Carmack is just winging it in a lot of aspects of his life, too.

Hearing Jonathan Blow talk about John Carmack is fascinating.

It's in some video or other, as it's a story Blow tells on himself when giving talks. He'd gone over the Doom source code when Carmack had open-sourced it, and Blow was appalled, because it was loaded with inefficient, crude, not-optimized stuff. Essentially, Doom source code was dumb and primitive.

Jonathan Blow's initial reaction was horror and contempt, because the code gave the impression that Carmack was just winging it most uncaringly. Later, Blow decided that this was a process of value judgement, and himself turned against trying to optimize and refine every little code style, in favor of doing stuff that didn't take nearly as much brain and ability to retain state. He took some of Carmack's dumbness and crudeness as an example of where to place your attention.

This is totally valid, while at the same time being a conscious decision to 'just wing it' in many senses. I do this myself, even on public-facing code. In a sense it's optimization and choosing to focus on areas where I can be more useful. At the same time, I'm literally just winging it and some of the things I'm not doing, I'm not doing because I'm too dumb to know how, and would be distracted by trying to learn. If I had great mastery of all these things it would affect my choices, but when I don't I'll take the Carmack path and ostentatiously do the 'crude' thing so I can lean on what I do have going for me.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#63

I'm always really impressed by young people, early in their careers or without any career experience at all, who intuit this and are confident in their convictions and get stuff done despite their inexperience. When I was young I was convinced that life beyond academia in all fields would be this super serious, mega competitive space where most everyone has everything figured out. That everyone who was there, in any…

> the classic Gates/Jobs/Zuckerberg etc, is not actually what they did but that they had the sheer temerity to do it at that age without first building their confidence in industry for a few years. They are/were all known for being very arrogant people. Just because some of them become billionaires doesn't mean everyone should be like that. > How did they have the confidence to hold their own when confronted with suc…

By building something that runs the world, Linux won the debate. Tanenbaum is revealed as an ivory-tower guy with strong opinions, but who only built a toy. By building Linux into what it is, Torvolds proved that a monolithic kernel works just fine.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#64
post #9

This is projection by people who are untrained in what they do. Competent people with good training in some discipline are able to apply that training to competently achieve goals. This allows them to apply knowledge that they didn't develop themselves by trial and error, and is much more efficient, with better outcomes than the alternatives. Unfortunately, this often seems to be the exception rather than the rule. A…

I'd like to offer a few decades of perspective on your claim. I've been programming for 30+ years. When I sit down to code, most of the time I've thought through it before even typing and am ~99% confident I won't hit a roadblock. I've spent half my life mastering my programming skills. BUT: I'm a high-level technical lead / product lead, so I only get to write code a few times a month and it is more for stress-relea…

> However, because of how corporations work, once you've demonstrated proficiency at "junior level work" you move up to the next big challenge. Yes, that sounds pejorative, but coding is not hard compared to the next levels of competency: programming is junior level, software architecture is senior level, product roadmap is staff level, corporate direction is above that.

This viewpoint, that those jobs are harder, is just self-justification (either to themselves or to everyone else) for people higher up that list of their higher pay than those below.

I don't believe those skills are actually harder (nor easier, just different), or that you have to be good, e.g., at programming to be good at corporate direction.

What is, IMO, true, is that those skills do have larger impact (or at least, significantly more obvious impact), which is at least a reasonable justification for higher pay.

But don't pretend that being good at software architecture, corporate direction, etc, means that you're actually smarter than that person who's "just" a programmer.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeff Bezos, on the other hand, went to a normal magnet school like I did.

That could come off a little tone deaf since many school districts likely can't afford magnet schools.

Oh no doubt. My magnet school had a graduating class of 40 people. But Bezos didn't go to Exeter.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zuckerberg's mom's a psychiatrist and his dad's a dentist. His dad taught him BASIC programming as a kid and then hired a software engineer as his tutor. Gates' dad's a prominent lawyer and his mom was a prominent businesswoman on the board of directors on several different organizations. Not only did Gates learn programming as a kid, but Microsoft only got on IBM computers because his mom knew IBM executives. When y…

We often forget that basically always brilliant successful kids have solid fundaments in form of their parents, affluent in the financial and legal domains. Even then they don't always succeed - remember that British kid who sold a recommendation engine to Yahoo? The rags-to-riches in the industry doesn't exist, move along people.

Isn't it more a case that Yahoo! wasn't that discerning?

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeff Bezos, on the other hand, went to a normal magnet school like I did.

That could come off a little tone deaf since many school districts likely can't afford magnet schools.

That's kind of how it landed here.

My old school district has one middle school and one high school, and pushed out the one of the best teachers I've ever had. That said, an organic chemistry class was offered, thanks entirely to the efforts of another great teacher.

I never had any real choices in my grades 6-12 education so, to me, being in a position to choose a school with a curriculum catering to one's interests and talents does seem to be a privilege many people take for granted.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#68
post #9

This is projection by people who are untrained in what they do. Competent people with good training in some discipline are able to apply that training to competently achieve goals. This allows them to apply knowledge that they didn't develop themselves by trial and error, and is much more efficient, with better outcomes than the alternatives. Unfortunately, this often seems to be the exception rather than the rule. A…

I agree a little bit, but I think you're swinging the pendulum a little far the other way. I work in a highly regulated area with consequences similar to "bridges falling down", and guess what? At an individual level, everyone is still winging it. What we do have though is a lot of processes: mandated things like checklists, written down procedures, standards that we work to and second-checking by peer or senior colleagues. It's those that stop the "bridges falling down", but at a personal / career level - people are all still exhibiting those people-like behaviors - rushing their work, making all kinds of mistakes, big-noting themselves, saying stupid things, etc. We design processes that kind of concede that "everyone is winging it all the time", so that things still be ok anyway.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#69

I'm always really impressed by young people, early in their careers or without any career experience at all, who intuit this and are confident in their convictions and get stuff done despite their inexperience. When I was young I was convinced that life beyond academia in all fields would be this super serious, mega competitive space where most everyone has everything figured out. That everyone who was there, in any…

Zuckerberg's mom's a psychiatrist and his dad's a dentist. His dad taught him BASIC programming as a kid and then hired a software engineer as his tutor. Gates' dad's a prominent lawyer and his mom was a prominent businesswoman on the board of directors on several different organizations. Not only did Gates learn programming as a kid, but Microsoft only got on IBM computers because his mom knew IBM executives. When y…

Besides Wikipedia, is there a repository or curated list somewhere that outlines the privileged upbringing of the most successful company founders?

I never knew this info about Gates or Zuckerberg, fascinating to say the least.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zuckerberg's mom's a psychiatrist and his dad's a dentist. His dad taught him BASIC programming as a kid and then hired a software engineer as his tutor. Gates' dad's a prominent lawyer and his mom was a prominent businesswoman on the board of directors on several different organizations. Not only did Gates learn programming as a kid, but Microsoft only got on IBM computers because his mom knew IBM executives. When y…

Jeff Bezos, on the other hand, went to a normal magnet school like I did.

Bezos was still fairly well off considering his parents were able to give him a 100k+ loan for Amazon. I'm not saying that it diminishes any of his accomplishments, just that I think it's pretty pointless to try and normalize privilege since everyone has had some "privilege" in their life dependent on perspective.
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