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Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

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Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#21
post #9

This is projection by people who are untrained in what they do. Competent people with good training in some discipline are able to apply that training to competently achieve goals. This allows them to apply knowledge that they didn't develop themselves by trial and error, and is much more efficient, with better outcomes than the alternatives. Unfortunately, this often seems to be the exception rather than the rule. A…

Paraphrasing Plato (quoting Socrates): The more I learn, the less I know.

Highly trained, competent people often encounter situations they're unfamiliar with. That's what keeps the job exciting.

To believe otherwise suggests either lack of training, or ...

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#22
post #9

This is projection by people who are untrained in what they do. Competent people with good training in some discipline are able to apply that training to competently achieve goals. This allows them to apply knowledge that they didn't develop themselves by trial and error, and is much more efficient, with better outcomes than the alternatives. Unfortunately, this often seems to be the exception rather than the rule. A…

I'd like to offer a few decades of perspective on your claim. I've been programming for 30+ years. When I sit down to code, most of the time I've thought through it before even typing and am ~99% confident I won't hit a roadblock. I've spent half my life mastering my programming skills. BUT: I'm a high-level technical lead / product lead, so I only get to write code a few times a month and it is more for stress-relea…

I believe the phenomenon you're talking about is called "Peter principle" [1], which states that "people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their level of incompetence. In other words, an employee is promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

edit: punctuation and wording

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#23
Humans are a differentiation machine, they follow along known branches until they break into something new. There they can create a new branch where they might be first or one of a few new minds in that area, in that case, 'winging it' may be employed but it is also based on experience in what to do with unknowns.

With any production/consumer scenario it is usually 1 to 1000 or more ratio. Most people aren't making new territory all the time, even inventors or creators. The fact is most of human existence is observing, studying, thinking, following, viewing existing knowledge while very few interact or create new production or are producing at one time on one subject or concentration, we are usually part of the 1000, though we all are the 1s for something.

All of that preparation prepares you for the moment where you meet new ground that must be entered and conquered. So new areas, even for the most experienced, are essentially 'winging it' uncharted territory until it becomes a solid branch of growth in the individual or industry/area of expertise. It is a bit like practice, which is a series of sketches until the time you have to use that skill in production where the refined lines, inking and color are put together, the art of progression/innovation comes together for production.

Then comes the 'here we go' and 'let's do this' moment where even experienced and skilled professionals take flight with the butterflies in their stomach of nervousness and excitement to conquer unknowns in uncharted territory with their pack of experience and knowledge, the experience/book smarts meet the reality/street, the adventure begins.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#24
post #9

This is projection by people who are untrained in what they do. Competent people with good training in some discipline are able to apply that training to competently achieve goals. This allows them to apply knowledge that they didn't develop themselves by trial and error, and is much more efficient, with better outcomes than the alternatives. Unfortunately, this often seems to be the exception rather than the rule. A…

I'd like to offer a few decades of perspective on your claim. I've been programming for 30+ years. When I sit down to code, most of the time I've thought through it before even typing and am ~99% confident I won't hit a roadblock. I've spent half my life mastering my programming skills. BUT: I'm a high-level technical lead / product lead, so I only get to write code a few times a month and it is more for stress-relea…

Great perspective. My takeaway is that people today are still overall undereducated. Business skills and corporate strategy should be taught earlier, at the highschool levels, instead of requiring a dedicated MBA.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#25
post #9

This is projection by people who are untrained in what they do. Competent people with good training in some discipline are able to apply that training to competently achieve goals. This allows them to apply knowledge that they didn't develop themselves by trial and error, and is much more efficient, with better outcomes than the alternatives. Unfortunately, this often seems to be the exception rather than the rule. A…

Agreed. I think there's a combination of things here - STEM type subjects for example seem to lend themselves to well defined processes and training, whereas things that are a bit more ambiguous (law, journalism, management, politics) leave a lot more space to make things up as you go along.

I think there are benefits to both, but whenever I see someone complain about everyone winging it, I think they show their incompetence and lack of professional development.

I work in a very fluid field (I recruit salespeople), so the rules are much less defined than if I were building rocketships or bridges or whatever, but there's still an abundance of work out there giving guidance on how things can be done.

You see the same things in startups. The successful ones are emulating a lot of the lessons learnt by people who came before them, and then innovate in a small area. The unsuccessful ones are "innovating" on everything.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#26
I'm always really impressed by young people, early in their careers or without any career experience at all, who intuit this and are confident in their convictions and get stuff done despite their inexperience.

When I was young I was convinced that life beyond academia in all fields would be this super serious, mega competitive space where most everyone has everything figured out. That everyone who was there, in any kind of profession, would be super smart and really know their game inside out.

When I started my career I assumed frankly that my opinions were wrong, because of this. In my first job there were a lot of aspects that were almost the parody of how not to do things, yet even though I sensed this intuitively I convinced myself probably for the first year that I must be wrong and this must just be the way things are done in industry. That I would eventually figure out that this was the right way to do things. It's quite funny to look back on that in retrospect.

What I find most impressive about tales of young company builders and leaders, the classic Gates/Jobs/Zuckerberg etc, is not actually what they did but that they had the sheer temerity to do it at that age without first building their confidence in industry for a few years.

How did they know that they had the ability to build companies such as theirs -- surely were it possible one of the adults with 10-20 years industry experience would have figured it out already? How did they have the confidence to hold their own when confronted with such adults (many of whom I'm sure challenged them and competed with them for influence) as their companies grew? Truly awe inspiring.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#27
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to offer a few decades of perspective on your claim. I've been programming for 30+ years. When I sit down to code, most of the time I've thought through it before even typing and am ~99% confident I won't hit a roadblock. I've spent half my life mastering my programming skills. BUT: I'm a high-level technical lead / product lead, so I only get to write code a few times a month and it is more for stress-relea…

I believe the phenomenon you're talking about is called "Peter principle" [1], which states that "people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their level of incompetence. In other words, an employee is promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle edit: punctuation and wording

He didn't mention people being incompetent. Why do you say he's talking about the Peter principle? I can't see it.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to offer a few decades of perspective on your claim. I've been programming for 30+ years. When I sit down to code, most of the time I've thought through it before even typing and am ~99% confident I won't hit a roadblock. I've spent half my life mastering my programming skills. BUT: I'm a high-level technical lead / product lead, so I only get to write code a few times a month and it is more for stress-relea…

I believe the phenomenon you're talking about is called "Peter principle" [1], which states that "people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their level of incompetence. In other words, an employee is promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle edit: punctuation and wording

No, he's talking about something different. The Peter Principle makes the process sound totally dysfunctional because it assumes the employee will remain incompetent, while he suggests that a period of incompetence is necessary to learn how to do your job.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#29
post #9

This is projection by people who are untrained in what they do. Competent people with good training in some discipline are able to apply that training to competently achieve goals. This allows them to apply knowledge that they didn't develop themselves by trial and error, and is much more efficient, with better outcomes than the alternatives. Unfortunately, this often seems to be the exception rather than the rule. A…

I'd like to offer a few decades of perspective on your claim. I've been programming for 30+ years. When I sit down to code, most of the time I've thought through it before even typing and am ~99% confident I won't hit a roadblock. I've spent half my life mastering my programming skills. BUT: I'm a high-level technical lead / product lead, so I only get to write code a few times a month and it is more for stress-relea…

The CTO you're convincing is winging it as well, so how much convincing do you actually need to do? How many C-levels have been convinced to blindly adopt ML/AI/Blockchain/TrendyThings?

If these folks really are winging it, that's code for "hey, we're dumb, come exploit us". It's where pomp and circumstance close deals rather than actually delivering something technically good. It's where things start turning into a social club but the salaries continue to climb.

Re: Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time (2014)

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to offer a few decades of perspective on your claim. I've been programming for 30+ years. When I sit down to code, most of the time I've thought through it before even typing and am ~99% confident I won't hit a roadblock. I've spent half my life mastering my programming skills. BUT: I'm a high-level technical lead / product lead, so I only get to write code a few times a month and it is more for stress-relea…

Great perspective. My takeaway is that people today are still overall undereducated. Business skills and corporate strategy should be taught earlier, at the highschool levels, instead of requiring a dedicated MBA.

> Business skills and corporate strategy should be taught earlier, at the highschool levels, instead of requiring a dedicated MBA.

How would you teach corporate strategy in a way that’s simultaneously honest (and useful to the individual) and palatable?

Maybe if you limited yourself to strategy within coops, where the individual’s incentives really are aligned with the incentives of everyone else in the organization, or mid-level management, where you only have a certain category of power - but that’s less useful because coops aren’t so common and mid-level management is ultimately subjected to what the upper levels decide.

In the end, individuals with positions where they have to worry about “business skills” or “corporate strategy” don’t usually have incentives which are aligned with the people at other rungs on the ladder. If you teach corporate strategy in an honest fashion, a not-insignificant portion of your material will be how to effectively redirect money from other areas in the organization to yourself. Most of your students will see that at stealing.

Or maybe you don’t teach how to leverage these strategies, but just how to spot them in action?

Either way, K-12 is traditionally focused on skills that are more foundational and generally useful. Admittedly, that’s changing as some schools introduce things like CS courses, but usually these are electives and not part of the core curriculum.

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