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‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

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Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#101

Post by zdragnar »

api wrote: post #76
zdragnar wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a country of 325 million people, it seemed like there wasn't anyone who didn't know someone either affected or directly harmed by the 9/11 (11/9 as you call it) attacks. It didn't feel like "some poor saps over there got the short end of the stick" it felt like "we're all directly attacked". This wasn't the first time Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda reached out and touched us. Previously, we'd treated him more or les…

If their goal was to destroy our society, they certainly got quite far with that. Since 9/11 we have abandoned American optimism, openness, and sense of a positive future in favor of ideologies that more closely resemble the paranoid reactionary beliefs of the terrorists.

I'm fairly sure the cold war paranoia pervaded society at least as much as, if not far more deeply, than post 9/11 effects. Also, let's not forget the internment camps for Japanese after WW2.

We changed, but I wouldn't call that change the kind of "destruction" that am Qaeda had in mind.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#102

Post by zdragnar »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #98
zdragnar wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a country of 325 million people, it seemed like there wasn't anyone who didn't know someone either affected or directly harmed by the 9/11 (11/9 as you call it) attacks. It didn't feel like "some poor saps over there got the short end of the stick" it felt like "we're all directly attacked". This wasn't the first time Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda reached out and touched us. Previously, we'd treated him more or les…

> (11/9 as you call it) I normally transpose to US order when it's 9/11 as it's become the name. Date habit got the better of me, sorry. > So, given that, what were we to do? Say to our neighbors, "sorry, you have to risk death in future attacks because I can't be arsed to wait longer in lines at the airport"? Not at all. It was a horrific, terrible event on an unprecedented scale, which I don't wish to play down or…

>> The consequences of our reaction, our actions (and lack of actions in other places) will be felt for generations

>That's basically my point.

I was replying more specifically to the claim that the terrorists have "won". By any measure of their stated goals, that simply isn't the case. They didn't want us to be inconvenienced, they wanted us to at least completely withdraw our military from the middle east. Beyond that, they'd love for a total collapse of society... Instead, we have been more heavily militarily entrenched than before ever since.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#103

Post by PhasmaFelis »

nonbel wrote: post #65
DennisP wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard to find sources. For example: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-countries-tha... http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-... A great book on the effects of climate change is Six Degrees by Mark Lynas, who read 3000 peer-reviewed papers on the effects of climate change and summarized them, one chapter per degree, with extensive references. One reason we know what to expec…

I mean something like this. It seems like just one person needs to do it, then it could be boilerplate since I see similar posts all over the place: > "The great strides we're making in access to food and clean water and medical care" -- What evidence is there for great strides being made? -- Regarding medical "care", there is an implication that care is a good thing. How well is this "care" translating to health, ra…

> What evidence is there for rising sea levels?

Google "evidence for rising sea levels". Do your own homework. It's reasonable to ask for sources for new or little-known claims; if you've somehow missed decades of well-established science, that's on you.

> Needs source: If humans can find ways to survive in antarctica, submarines, and outer space I doubt this true.

So it's no big deal to just build air-conditioned arcologies to house two billion-plus people? In some of the poorest places on Earth?

You're not being serious; this is knee-jerk contrarianism. Let us know if you want to discuss this in good faith.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#104

Post by nonbel »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #103
nonbel wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean something like this. It seems like just one person needs to do it, then it could be boilerplate since I see similar posts all over the place: > "The great strides we're making in access to food and clean water and medical care" -- What evidence is there for great strides being made? -- Regarding medical "care", there is an implication that care is a good thing. How well is this "care" translating to health, ra…

> What evidence is there for rising sea levels? Google "evidence for rising sea levels". Do your own homework. It's reasonable to ask for sources for new or little-known claims; if you've somehow missed decades of well-established science, that's on you. > Needs source: If humans can find ways to survive in antarctica, submarines, and outer space I doubt this true. So it's no big deal to just build air-conditioned ar…

> "Do your own homework."

Sorry, but both claims I followed to original research articles in this thread did not contain the supposed info. I gave you guys another chance to convince someone, even giving explicit instructions and an example of the format, and instead I walk away thinking the people concerned about this don't actually know what they are talking about.

First, was that if things continue apace large areas will be unlivable

-- The primary source said if temperatures rose an additional 7 degrees C, which is twice the rise expected by the IPCC, something like that may happen.

Second, was that 99.99% of scientists say that we're screwed.

-- Instead it was the percent of papers with global warming in the title/abstract that didnt include a claim like "global warming is BS" in the title/abstract, or something. Either way it had to do with the existence of warming, not the consequences.

That's why I have the rule. To prevent from wasting each others time it is best to quote the exact line or figure you think is relevant. And if you look through my post history you can see I do indeed treat others how I would like to be treated when it comes to these types of topics.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#105

Post by dorgo »

andrepd wrote: post #32
DennisP wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically speaking, the best time to own Bitcoin was back in January. Things always look great at the top of a bubble. CO2 is higher than in the past several million years and we're still adding more at our usual pace. We've killed 60% of wild vertebrate life since 1970, wiped out a large percentage of the insect population, and we're continuing the practices that caused that as well. None of this can go on foreve…

The root cause of all of this: an economic system predicated on the notion of growth . Unrestrained greed, sole focus on maximization of profit, and unlimited growth. It's not enough to sell as many mobile phones as you did last year, no, you must sell 10% more each quarter, or whatever. Doesn't matter if you're mining the earth bare, generating millions of tons of garbage, optimising for inferior products that break…

>"the only people who believe in infinite growth on a finite planet are madmen and economists"

There are 10 more planets in the neighbourhood. And even more some lightyears away..

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#106

Post by brett40324 »

api wrote: post #38
ctdonath wrote: post #8

"the ’90s, that bizarre blip in American history where it seemed like we were living in an eternal present, the End of History" That's something millennials & later won't understand: 2000 was a mental barrier we couldn't really think past. Objectively, people may have addressed the next millennium's dates, but we just couldn't deeply believe we'd be living in what was always colloquially called "the future".

I have a very different take. As someone who grew up in the 90s I draw the line at 9/11. That event ended the brief post cold war era of peace, prosperity, and optimism. We still have not recovered culturally from 9/11. The optimism of the 90s is literally unthinkable today. The terrorists won.

I definitely agree. I turned 18 in September just before 9/11. So, there's a very definite mental line in time drawn that year where everything since has vastly changed.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#107

Post by dorgo »

crispyambulance wrote: post #21
DennisP wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically speaking, the best time to own Bitcoin was back in January. Things always look great at the top of a bubble. CO2 is higher than in the past several million years and we're still adding more at our usual pace. We've killed 60% of wild vertebrate life since 1970, wiped out a large percentage of the insect population, and we're continuing the practices that caused that as well. None of this can go on foreve…

Well put. The ironic thing about all numbers-oriented folks in extractive enterprises (regardless of whether they're extracting natural resources, capital, or labor), is their blind spot to the fact that ALL resources are finite. There's no "free-refill" when the big-gulp runs out.

> ALL resources are finite

Not in a world where matter/energy is conserved over time.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#108

Post by krapp »

dorgo wrote: post #107
crispyambulance wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well put. The ironic thing about all numbers-oriented folks in extractive enterprises (regardless of whether they're extracting natural resources, capital, or labor), is their blind spot to the fact that ALL resources are finite. There's no "free-refill" when the big-gulp runs out.

> ALL resources are finite Not in a world where matter/energy is conserved over time.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics would like a word with you...

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#109

Post by dorgo »

rayiner wrote: post #58
AJRF wrote: post #14

"I’ve been thinking about 12 Monkeys a lot lately. It seems, these days, as though the human race has passed a Rubicon and is now on a straight path toward the end of days, or at least the end of the social order as we know it." This feels a little unsubstantiated. Historically speaking, this is the greatest time on earth to be alive. This pessimism is toxic and unrealistic.

I don't think the pessimism is unrealistic. Unless there is a scientific miracle, we are headed toward significant increases in global temperature over the next 50-100 years. The temperature rise itself probably won't kill us, or at least most of us. But the temperature rise itself is not what we have to worry about. Think about the events that triggered WWI and WWII--they will pale in comparison to the consequences…

Humans will always find something to fight over. If it's not the water supply it's the religion. If it's not religion it's something else. Envirentment won't kill us. We will.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#110

Post by DennisP »

nonbel wrote: post #104
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What evidence is there for rising sea levels? Google "evidence for rising sea levels". Do your own homework. It's reasonable to ask for sources for new or little-known claims; if you've somehow missed decades of well-established science, that's on you. > Needs source: If humans can find ways to survive in antarctica, submarines, and outer space I doubt this true. So it's no big deal to just build air-conditioned ar…

> "Do your own homework." Sorry, but both claims I followed to original research articles in this thread did not contain the supposed info. I gave you guys another chance to convince someone, even giving explicit instructions and an example of the format, and instead I walk away thinking the people concerned about this don't actually know what they are talking about. First, was that if things continue apace large are…

IPCC's business-as-usual scenario presents a range. You were correct that 4C is about the median but 6.4C is the upper end: https://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/spmsspm...

That's by the end of the century, not the highest it will ever go.

And honestly, I hope you're not going to base your views on what links a couple jokers on HN have handy. Read books with real references or by actual scientists. We can't provide a couple web articles that will be sufficient to convince you, if that's not what convinced us.

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