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For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

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Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#11

Post by krapp »

callinyouin wrote: post #8
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #4

The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s. Something about still being bitter about the Civil War (which we were taught was not about slavery, but states rights, ugh).

The states rights thing is pervasive. I was taught the same thing in a public school all the way up North in Michigan. (late 90s, early 2000s)

It's just true enough to not be an outright lie, while being enough of a lie of omission to serve its purpose as propaganda.

Yes, the Civil War was about states' rights. Yes, the South was fighting for independence from what it saw as Northern political bias and Federal overreach. But all of those ancillary issues were about defending slavery as an economic and cultural institution.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#12

Post by faitswulff »

geggam wrote: post #6
aylmao wrote: post #3

tldr; Thanksgiving was traditionally celebrated in the north, with "northern" food, and after it was made a national holiday by Lincoln the confederate states refused to acknowledge it. I'm curious about Native Americans though. A lot of their culture and resistance has been lost today, but back around the birth of the holiday I can imagine them finding it offensive and being vocal about it, if not due to politics an…

Native Americans are still one of the most ignored groups, I think they quit being vocal due to the fact it's a lost cause.

> I think they quit being vocal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_Access_Pipeline_protest...

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#14

Post by geggam »

faitswulff wrote: post #12
geggam wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Native Americans are still one of the most ignored groups, I think they quit being vocal due to the fact it's a lost cause.

> I think they quit being vocal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_Access_Pipeline_protest...

lost cause ?

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#15

Post by paulddraper »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #4

The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s. Something about still being bitter about the Civil War (which we were taught was not about slavery, but states rights, ugh).

FWIW, I've found that on the other hand, northern schools teach little about the non-slavery motivations for the Civil War.

Many people don't realize that both the Confederacy and Union had slavery, or the the Emancipation Proclamation specifically exempted the Union's slaves (as it had to).

This triggers a lack of balanced historical perspective and understanding. E.g. many of the naive arguments for razing Confederate history can be applied to US history, European colonist history, Native American history, etc. Without nuance, the conversation becomes a one-sided "we are good and our history is good vs they are bad and their history is bad".

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#16

Post by snovv_crash »

callinyouin wrote: post #8
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #4

The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s. Something about still being bitter about the Civil War (which we were taught was not about slavery, but states rights, ugh).

The states rights thing is pervasive. I was taught the same thing in a public school all the way up North in Michigan. (late 90s, early 2000s)

It was about states' rights, specifically states' to continue practicing slavery.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#17

Post by seanmcdirmid »

paulddraper wrote: post #15
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #4

The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s. Something about still being bitter about the Civil War (which we were taught was not about slavery, but states rights, ugh).

FWIW, I've found that on the other hand, northern schools teach little about the non-slavery motivations for the Civil War. Many people don't realize that both the Confederacy and Union had slavery, or the the Emancipation Proclamation specifically exempted the Union's slaves (as it had to). This triggers a lack of balanced historical perspective and understanding. E.g. many of the naive arguments for razing Confeder…

It would be more correct to say that there were slave states that didn't succede from the USA. The president couldn't free slaves within the USA by executive order because they were not at war with the USA (enemy territory being where the president could use their power as commander-in-chief)...that instead required the 13th amendment.

I went to school in the North as well, and in my opinion, they simply didn't dwell on the Civil War for as long as my Southern school did (a whole semester vs. a couple of weeks). It makes sense...the Civil War doesn't have much locality in Seattle while it has a lot of locality in Vicksburg.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#18

Post by danielvf »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #4

The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s. Something about still being bitter about the Civil War (which we were taught was not about slavery, but states rights, ugh).

The first day I saw more US flags than Confederate flags in my small southern town was the day after 9/11.

As you said, the fervently believed myth was that the confederacy was about states rights - growing up I only met one person in twenty years who even went so far as making a rasict joke, and I knew plenty who flew a Confederate flag and absolutely believed that all men were created equal.

I think maybe the myth ended up being a useful way of letting people keep their old flag and old team allegiance, while completely changing the what they actually believed.

That said, the Fourth of July and Thanksgiving were always celebrated.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#19

Post by seanmcdirmid »

danielvf wrote: post #18
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #4

The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s. Something about still being bitter about the Civil War (which we were taught was not about slavery, but states rights, ugh).

The first day I saw more US flags than Confederate flags in my small southern town was the day after 9/11. As you said, the fervently believed myth was that the confederacy was about states rights - growing up I only met one person in twenty years who even went so far as making a rasict joke, and I knew plenty who flew a Confederate flag and absolutely believed that all men were created equal. I think maybe the myth…

Ya, I think the first gulf war was a turning point in Southern patriotism, and 9/11 even more so (though I wasn't in the south then). Its funny how the stereotype today of the south is of ultra-patriotism when it wasn't too long ago that the exact opposite was true.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#20

Post by mvexel »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #4

The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s. Something about still being bitter about the Civil War (which we were taught was not about slavery, but states rights, ugh).

"States' rights" is actually one of the valid answers to question 74 on the naturalization civics test. ("Name one problem that led to the Civil War.")

Now I wonder what process led to these 100 questions, and their valid answers. (I just took the test a few weeks ago, and becoming a U.S. citizen on Monday.)

The full list of questions and valid answers is here: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Office%20of%...

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