‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#91

Post by kiliantics » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 8:42 PM UTC

ta_egdhs wrote: post #44

api wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a very different take. As someone who grew up in the 90s I draw the line at 9/11. That event ended the brief post cold war era of peace, prosperity, and optimism. We still have not recovered culturally from 9/11. The optimism of the 90s is literally unthinkable today. The terrorists won.

idk why this is downvoted. the 90s is the period between the end of the cold war and the start of the war on terror. its the only time in living memory where there was no enemy. 9/11 absolutely changed the country. it was the start of militarized police, nationalistic displays, and 24/7 fear that have all been normalized today. Perhaps the terrorists didn't win (Bin Laden is dead and the house of Saud still stands) b…

9/11 didn't come out of nowhere though. The 90s weren't actually war-free. There was, in fact, no shortage of wars[0]. Sure, they mostly do not involve western powers, but they can certainly be traced back to them. All of these civil wars are the reverberations of colonialism and the two world wars.

The former colonisers were so unwilling to relinquish their grasp on these territories and so willing to instead install puppet governments or just continue their colonisation through multinational corporations instead. It's no surprise it led to these insurgencies that have the US in their sights. We reap what we sow.

> its the only time in living memory where there was no enemy.

The reality is that we have always been the enemy. And we manufacture a bogeyman to legitimise our hegemonic power and the unjust actions it requires to maintain that power. When the USSR and other socialist powers fell, a new enemy had to be created and 9/11 worked perfectly.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_1990%E2%80%932002

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#92

Post by ithkuil » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 8:57 PM UTC

kiliantics wrote: post #81

AJRF wrote: post #14

"I’ve been thinking about 12 Monkeys a lot lately. It seems, these days, as though the human race has passed a Rubicon and is now on a straight path toward the end of days, or at least the end of the social order as we know it." This feels a little unsubstantiated. Historically speaking, this is the greatest time on earth to be alive. This pessimism is toxic and unrealistic.

> Historically speaking, this is the greatest time on earth to be alive. This feels a little unsubstantiated. Wealth inequality has never been higher than it is today. Species extinction rates have never been higher than today. There are plenty of good reasons to be skeptical about the future.

> Wealth inequality has never been higher than it is today

Honest question: is that true?

I mean practical weather (in)equality, not just comparing how many billion of dollars some few billionaires have vs the poorest people on Earth.

In the past there were Kings and peasants, Masters and slaves, people who had everything by birth right and other people who had nothing and never could have it, not even the right to education. I'm not saying nowadays there are not instances of that in still too many contexts (not only in far away countries), but claiming that wealth inequality was never so big as today sounds quite odd to me.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#93

Post by lifeformed » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

nonbel wrote: post #85

lifeformed wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The facts are a keystroke away, plain as day, shouted for years upon deaf ears. People who ask you to Google for them these answers aren't arguing in good faith. There's nothing left to debate, the details were figured out a long time ago. At this point, I'm convinced that there are zero climate skeptics who really want to find answers; it's all willful ignorance or malice. It's comically stupid how the obvious truth…

It isn't about facts or "truth" or "99.9% of scientists saying" we are screwed. That isn't how science/engineering works, its how politics works. Perhaps that is why there is difficulty communicating across the gap. Do you have a source for that last one by the way (99.9 % of scientists saying we are screwed)?

Info: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/027046761770707...

And the paper itself: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j0roqfsrx4tz4nd/Powell-2015.pdf?dl...

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#94

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

cf498 wrote: post #69

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #55

It seems, these days, as though the human race has passed a Rubicon and is now on a straight path toward the end of days, or at least the end of the social order as we know it. Is there some name for the phenomenon that as things get better, our assessment of where things stand seems to get more and more pessimistic? I feel like you see this in issues of racial and gender equality as well. Things are so much better t…

Nuclear holocaust would have been caused and was prevented by just a few people. It would have been an action with a direct result. We could and did also just stop with the nonsense. We dont have that option for climate change. We have a worsening situation and no realistic option to stop or even reverse things. Differently put, nuclear holocaust was a threat, climate change an active process.

We have a worsening situation and no realistic option to stop or even reverse things.

I think this is where we probably disagree. I think things are going to get pretty bad, and many will needlessly suffer and die, but we'll switch to renewables and start doing large-scale geoengineering in the 2030s or 2040s to reverse some of the damaging effects of climate change and eventually stabilize things. Likely not before we've had some devastating wars and lost many species, but I personally think most of the predictions of civilization collapse are way overblown.

It's also possible that sometime in the next decade, all the nations of the world join some kind of super Paris agreement, but I'm not hopeful.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#95

Post by DennisP » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:11 PM UTC

jm__87 wrote: post #75

DennisP wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically speaking, the best time to own Bitcoin was back in January. Things always look great at the top of a bubble. CO2 is higher than in the past several million years and we're still adding more at our usual pace. We've killed 60% of wild vertebrate life since 1970, wiped out a large percentage of the insect population, and we're continuing the practices that caused that as well. None of this can go on foreve…

> if you model a simple assumption that resources get more expensive to extract over time Why would you make this assumption? Resources get cheaper to extract over time as technology improves...

Technology improves but resources get more scarce. Oil is getting more expensive to extract, for example. The same is true of many mineral resources, as we're forced to move to lower-grade ores.

But your point is a good one. I basically see us as being in a race between technological improvement and environmental catastrophe. I'm not at all sure which side will win. It'd be nice if policy makers would help weight the race in our favor.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#96

Post by nonbel » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:19 PM UTC

lifeformed wrote: post #93

nonbel wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't about facts or "truth" or "99.9% of scientists saying" we are screwed. That isn't how science/engineering works, its how politics works. Perhaps that is why there is difficulty communicating across the gap. Do you have a source for that last one by the way (99.9 % of scientists saying we are screwed)?

Info: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/027046761770707... And the paper itself: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j0roqfsrx4tz4nd/Powell-2015.pdf?dl...

Can you quote the part of the paper where you think it claims "99.9% of scientists [are] saying that we're screwed."

I just looked and didn't see it.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#97

Post by NeedMoreTea » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #68

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TV series was truly awful and utterly unrelated to the movie, except the weak linking to try and force it to be related in the first one or two episodes.

Utterly unrelated? How much of the show did you watch? I don’t want to spoil much, but the focal point throughout the whole show was the relationship between the 12 Monkeys and the plague, just like it was in the movie.

I loved the movie enough that I wanted to love the series too. It helped that SyFy have turned out some great programming. I didn't reach the end of the first TV series. I tried, and definitely got past half way - maybe 8 or 9 episodes.

For me, it just kept reinforcing the thought that it wasn't a patch on the movie and felt more like any old time travel series. I couldn't connect with it or relate it to the film like I could with say Stargate or Star Trek film vs TV.

Maybe I should give it another go sometime. :)

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#98

Post by NeedMoreTea » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:34 PM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #64

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this is far too controversial a view for HN, and for many Americans, we'll see. The terrorists absolutely won. Least that's my perception as a non-American. Your first mistake was legitimising them as "the enemy" When the IRA were bombing Docklands, Manchester or Birmingham pubs we'd make a poor taste joke the next morning, walk past the wreckage and forget about it the day after that. When the Baader Meinhof…

In a country of 325 million people, it seemed like there wasn't anyone who didn't know someone either affected or directly harmed by the 9/11 (11/9 as you call it) attacks. It didn't feel like "some poor saps over there got the short end of the stick" it felt like "we're all directly attacked". This wasn't the first time Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda reached out and touched us. Previously, we'd treated him more or les…

> (11/9 as you call it)

I normally transpose to US order when it's 9/11 as it's become the name. Date habit got the better of me, sorry.

> So, given that, what were we to do? Say to our neighbors, "sorry, you have to risk death in future attacks because I can't be arsed to wait longer in lines at the airport"?

Not at all. It was a horrific, terrible event on an unprecedented scale, which I don't wish to play down or disrespect. Perhaps no reaction could have kept the trademark US unbounded optimism afterwards, but it seems that the reaction changed more than the event itself.

If the reaction had been more like other incidents, the authorities could have quietly done what authorities do whilst the politicians try to play down the drama and immediate desire for revenge, reinforcing the need to mourn but preserve all that's best of your way of life. The CIA and excellent special forces might have clinically cut al Quaeda and its leaders to shreds over the coming years with global support and enhanced US global reputation. It might have taken longer, or been more difficult with an organisation like al Quaeda. Smaller changes could have improved air security without the enormous security theatre industry that's resulted.

The creation of the surveillance state, the invasions, ongoing military casualties and gunboat diplomacy seems to have brought most of the changes to society and attitudes and subsequent change in international views.

> The consequences of our reaction, our actions (and lack of actions in other places) will be felt for generations

That's basically my point.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#99

Post by ctdonath » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 10:28 PM UTC

dana321 wrote: post #34

ctdonath wrote: post #8

"the ’90s, that bizarre blip in American history where it seemed like we were living in an eternal present, the End of History" That's something millennials & later won't understand: 2000 was a mental barrier we couldn't really think past. Objectively, people may have addressed the next millennium's dates, but we just couldn't deeply believe we'd be living in what was always colloquially called "the future".

Y2K had everyone spooked and everyone thought that all the machines would stop, looking back on it seems funny now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_ap...

That threat was real, and an example of how concerted objective efforts could fix it.

Unfortunately, many people seem to think a risk is only real if something goes wrong; successful mitigation seems to mean the risk wasn't real.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#100

Post by ctdonath » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 10:34 PM UTC

api wrote: post #38

ctdonath wrote: post #8

"the ’90s, that bizarre blip in American history where it seemed like we were living in an eternal present, the End of History" That's something millennials & later won't understand: 2000 was a mental barrier we couldn't really think past. Objectively, people may have addressed the next millennium's dates, but we just couldn't deeply believe we'd be living in what was always colloquially called "the future".

I have a very different take. As someone who grew up in the 90s I draw the line at 9/11. That event ended the brief post cold war era of peace, prosperity, and optimism. We still have not recovered culturally from 9/11. The optimism of the 90s is literally unthinkable today. The terrorists won.

You miss the point: it's not about drawing a line in the past, it's that we couldn't think past a date in the future. We didn't know society-changing events on 9/11/2001 would happen. We couldn't believe 1/1/2000 (and after) itself would happen, so mentally created a view of an eternal present where the 1990's wouldn't end ... 2000 & beyond were an unreachable future.