‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#51

Post by wpietri » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #32

DennisP wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically speaking, the best time to own Bitcoin was back in January. Things always look great at the top of a bubble. CO2 is higher than in the past several million years and we're still adding more at our usual pace. We've killed 60% of wild vertebrate life since 1970, wiped out a large percentage of the insect population, and we're continuing the practices that caused that as well. None of this can go on foreve…

The root cause of all of this: an economic system predicated on the notion of growth . Unrestrained greed, sole focus on maximization of profit, and unlimited growth. It's not enough to sell as many mobile phones as you did last year, no, you must sell 10% more each quarter, or whatever. Doesn't matter if you're mining the earth bare, generating millions of tons of garbage, optimising for inferior products that break…

I don't think seeking growth is the root cause. We all want things to be better tomorrow than today, and a large part of the way we experience "better" is captured in economic notions of value. And as Jesse Ausubel points out [1], use of many resources has been decoupled from economic growth. Take video games as an example. It's a $100bn/year industry. At worst its resource usage is modest. But I suspect it's net negative: every hour people are driving in-game vehicles is an hour they aren't driving ones that burn fossil fuels; virtual purchases replace goods that get shipped or bought in stores.

I think you're more on target with the shortsightedness that relates purposefully wrong accounting and unchecked drives for dominance and greed. But I don't think ending that is incompatible with creating a system where we keep improving the amount of value we create for each other.

[1] http://longnow.org/seminars/02015/jan/13/nature-rebounding-l...

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#52

Post by nabla9 » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 6:04 PM UTC

jlawson wrote: post #49

nabla9 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the movie. They definitely can't change the past. They live in block universe where there is only one timeline that happens no matter what. They can only travel into the past and observe and bring some stuff back. mc is a hero because he discovers the real villain and sends message to the future. The idea is to get sample of the original non-mutated virus and develop a cure in the future so that they can live…

I think the idea was that the woman scientist "in insurance" in the plane at the end was in fact the next agent working on getting the pre-mutated virus. She knew to go back to that time and get on that seat of that plane because Cole's actions pinpointed the target, time, and place.

Ah, yes. I forgot that. There is in fact plot already going on in the last scene.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#53

Post by benj111 » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 6:08 PM UTC

api wrote: post #38

ctdonath wrote: post #8

"the ’90s, that bizarre blip in American history where it seemed like we were living in an eternal present, the End of History" That's something millennials & later won't understand: 2000 was a mental barrier we couldn't really think past. Objectively, people may have addressed the next millennium's dates, but we just couldn't deeply believe we'd be living in what was always colloquially called "the future".

I have a very different take. As someone who grew up in the 90s I draw the line at 9/11. That event ended the brief post cold war era of peace, prosperity, and optimism. We still have not recovered culturally from 9/11. The optimism of the 90s is literally unthinkable today. The terrorists won.

Indeed. Add to that the new fangled world wide web, that would change everything for the better.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#54

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 6:09 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #8

"the ’90s, that bizarre blip in American history where it seemed like we were living in an eternal present, the End of History" That's something millennials & later won't understand: 2000 was a mental barrier we couldn't really think past. Objectively, people may have addressed the next millennium's dates, but we just couldn't deeply believe we'd be living in what was always colloquially called "the future".

slightly related but for me 80s are always 20 years back

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#55

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

It seems, these days, as though the human race has passed a Rubicon and is now on a straight path toward the end of days, or at least the end of the social order as we know it.

Is there some name for the phenomenon that as things get better, our assessment of where things stand seems to get more and more pessimistic? I feel like you see this in issues of racial and gender equality as well. Things are so much better than they were 100 years ago, but even as I write that, I'm tempted to pre-empt it with an acknowledgement that things are still terrible, because I know that I'm going to get a bunch of comments about how bad race and gender relations are today. And those comments are not wrong, but they ignore the context of all the progress that's been made.

There will always be some kind of crisis and existential risk looming for some or all of civilization, but the more objectively better things get, the more disinclined we seem to be to acknowledge the progress that's been made. Why is that?

Don't get me wrong, climate change is horrific. But for almost the entire second half of the last century, we faced the very real threat of nuclear annihilation at any moment. It's terrifying how close we came to that tipping point. For the first half of the last century, we had two global wars that killed tens of millions of people and whose outcomes were not certain. When I read the history of World War I and II, I'm struck by how easily things could have gone differently and perhaps left us with a much worse world than the one we face today.

So while climate change is a huge problem, I think it's preferable to all-out nuclear war. I think we'll figure it out in the long run, not without a lot of suffering and cost, but we have options. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Regardless, as soon as we do, there will be some new problem that isn't quite as bad as climate change, and humanity will be as pessimistic as its ever been about our future ability to thrive.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#56

Post by NeedMoreTea » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 6:13 PM UTC

ta_egdhs wrote: post #44

api wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a very different take. As someone who grew up in the 90s I draw the line at 9/11. That event ended the brief post cold war era of peace, prosperity, and optimism. We still have not recovered culturally from 9/11. The optimism of the 90s is literally unthinkable today. The terrorists won.

idk why this is downvoted. the 90s is the period between the end of the cold war and the start of the war on terror. its the only time in living memory where there was no enemy. 9/11 absolutely changed the country. it was the start of militarized police, nationalistic displays, and 24/7 fear that have all been normalized today. Perhaps the terrorists didn't win (Bin Laden is dead and the house of Saud still stands) b…

Perhaps this is far too controversial a view for HN, and for many Americans, we'll see.

The terrorists absolutely won. Least that's my perception as a non-American. Your first mistake was legitimising them as "the enemy"

When the IRA were bombing Docklands, Manchester or Birmingham pubs we'd make a poor taste joke the next morning, walk past the wreckage and forget about it the day after that. When the Baader Meinhoff Group were killing public figures, and bombing Brits, Germans and Americans over in Germany they were treated as a bunch of insignificant extremists. Even by the Americans it seemed from news reports. There'd be a poor taste joke or two, and they'd be ignored. Much the same for other terrorist groups hijacking aircraft or killing people through history. "Don't deal with terrorists" was heard from every politician.

Then came 11/9 and the "war on terror." So determined were your politicians to legitimise the terrorists it became a war. Against a legitimate target. Globally. So determined were you to preserve your "freedoms" that you built an apparatus of surveillance to ensure that freedom. Apparatus so far reaching that it is indistinguishable from an apparatus of oppression. Most other countries played along too in support, and built the same apparatus of oppression to preserve freedom. Not only did the USA lose, and the terrorists win, but the UK, France, Iraq, Malaysia etc lost too. So did freedom.

No more bad taste joke the morning after and treating them as a bunch of irrelevant idiots unworthy of but the briefest air time (like I get the impression most Americans still do with a group like the Westborough Baptist Church), but an unwinnable war with a legitimate enemy and a leader, and endless analysis. Everyone except them, globally, lost.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#57

Post by PhasmaFelis » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 6:13 PM UTC

nonbel wrote: post #48

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A whole lot of factors are better now than they've ever been, and that's genuinely wonderful and cause for optimism. It's naive to therefore ignore all other factors. The great strides we're making in access to food and clean water and medical care won't stop unchecked global warming from devastating human civilization. It's not just a matter of rising sea levels; if things continue apace, large parts of the equator…

>"The great strides we're making in access to food and clean water and medical care won't stop unchecked global warming from devastating human civilization. It's not just a matter of rising sea levels; if things continue apace, large parts of the equator will be too hot for humans to survive by the end of this century, and hundreds of millions of climate refugees will be seeking sanctuary somewhere, anywhere." Do you…

All right!

https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/india-climate-chang...

https://qz.com/india/1049730/heatwaves-could-turn-parts-of-i...

https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/07/africa/sudan-climate-change/i...

I'm curious why you felt that such a hostile response was justified. You could have just said "I'd like to see a source for that" and I would happily have provided. Did you really think I was just making up lies, and would slink away in defeat when challenged?

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#58

Post by rayiner » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 6:16 PM UTC

AJRF wrote: post #14

"I’ve been thinking about 12 Monkeys a lot lately. It seems, these days, as though the human race has passed a Rubicon and is now on a straight path toward the end of days, or at least the end of the social order as we know it." This feels a little unsubstantiated. Historically speaking, this is the greatest time on earth to be alive. This pessimism is toxic and unrealistic.

I don't think the pessimism is unrealistic. Unless there is a scientific miracle, we are headed toward significant increases in global temperature over the next 50-100 years. The temperature rise itself probably won't kill us, or at least most of us. But the temperature rise itself is not what we have to worry about. Think about the events that triggered WWI and WWII--they will pale in comparison to the consequences of climate change. How is climate change going to affect China and India (two nuclear powers) and their neighbors?

Climate change and the resulting water shortages aren't going to leave the West unscathed either, even leaving aside the political issues elsewhere. At the rate the Ogallala aquifer is being depleted, farm production in the Midwest of the U.S. will peak in 2040. Farmers in Kansas will have to drop their groundwater pumping by 80% in order to preserve the aquifer indefinitely. There is a real possibility that water shortages will get very ugly. Then of course you have major west coast cities that depend on the Colorado river for drinking water, and are already fighting over a resource that's at capacity. I don't think it would be out of the question to see civil unrest or outright military action between U.S. states within a century if some scientific advance doesn't change the course of the water situation in the U.S.

These scenarios are not unrealistic or unduly speculative. Major environmental stressors will happen this century absent some unforeseen technological interventions.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#59

Post by DennisP » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 6:19 PM UTC

nonbel wrote: post #48

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A whole lot of factors are better now than they've ever been, and that's genuinely wonderful and cause for optimism. It's naive to therefore ignore all other factors. The great strides we're making in access to food and clean water and medical care won't stop unchecked global warming from devastating human civilization. It's not just a matter of rising sea levels; if things continue apace, large parts of the equator…

>"The great strides we're making in access to food and clean water and medical care won't stop unchecked global warming from devastating human civilization. It's not just a matter of rising sea levels; if things continue apace, large parts of the equator will be too hot for humans to survive by the end of this century, and hundreds of millions of climate refugees will be seeking sanctuary somewhere, anywhere." Do you…

It's not hard to find sources. For example:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-countries-tha...

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-...

A great book on the effects of climate change is Six Degrees by Mark Lynas, who read 3000 peer-reviewed papers on the effects of climate change and summarized them, one chapter per degree, with extensive references.

One reason we know what to expect is that the Earth has gone through warming cycles before and we can see what happened in the geological evidence. A good presentation of that evidence is in Hansen's Storms of My Grandchildren.

Re: ‘12 Monkeys’: Why Terry Gilliam’s Movie Is Relevant Today

#60

Post by stevenwoo » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 6:20 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #33

adetrest wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, the show was ok but the film is much better. While the show takes place in a similar universe, it's not a continuity.

The opposite is true to me. The film was OK, but the show was excellent.

I rewatched both 12 Monkeys the film and Brazil and they both share an incredibly unbelievable romance - in the first the scientist falls in love with a homeless man and kisses him passionately over the span of about 10 minutes of screen time after thinking he was insane and finding proof he was a time traveler (homeless people are humans, too, but if Cole had been living like a homeless person long enough to appear like that he would have had a pretty foul odor) and in Brazil, Sam Lowry and the female lead are arguing and he singled handedly ends her career and in the next(?) scene we see them together they are in bed pre/post consummation ( though of course that scene makes more sense if it's only in his head after we watch the end of the movie). The TV series also manages to top Brad Pitt's crazy guy, that I thought was going to be impossible after hearing about the TV series initially.