How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart • Hacker News Board

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#91

Post by JohnBooty » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 2:49 PM UTC

This is weird to me because I feel like it's easier than ever to have a social life.

Looking on Facebook, Meetup, etc. I can easily find local groups that match my interests. There's a local Ruby group, gaming groups, tennis and other casual sports leagues, and so on. Social media is actually pretty cool for that when used judiciously.

My wife and I -- despite not being particularly glamorous or anything -- actually experience a fair bit of anxiety due to having more social possibilities than we could ever really say "yes" to. We've got long-time friends in the area and I meet a fair number of people that make me think, "I bet I could be pretty good friends with that person, if my slate wasn't full already...."

I think the big change from previous decades is that social interaction is more focused. It's more interest-based.

Yes, there's less of that "sit on your porch in the evening and talk to your neighbors as they walk by" and "get to know your local postal clerk on a first-name basis" kind of thing, and something good has definitely been lost there.

Perhaps the ultimate result to all of this is that all of this is that while it's easier than ever to make friends... it's also easier to fall through the cracks. There's crazy levels of social interaction out there, tailored to your interests, if you reach out and do it... but unlike the old days, it ain't gonna reach out and grab you.

I imagine that in the old days, you sat on your porch/stoop on summer evenings and your neighbors may or may not have strolled by and settled in for a beer or glass of lemonade or whatever, including Fred and Betty from down the street who also might have mentioned that they're looking for more couples to join their bowling league or some such thing.

It's sad that doesn't happen any more, but I bet there were also a lot of nights when nobody strolled by, and perhaps Fred and Betty were jerks anyway and maybe you didn't really want them to stop by. That was also a shit way to find very specific interests like a local Ruby group or a local group of transgender Civil War reenactment aficionados or whatever. So, some things have been lost, and some things gained.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#92

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

oldboyFX wrote: post #7

supakeen wrote: post #3

It's easy to point out that this is caused by 'the internet' or 'modern technology' replacing the need for human interaction. We feel less alone but are more selective about our friends, live in smaller echo chambers. In meatspace there's this thing where you want people to like you if you meet them, possibly enforced by the fact that someone might punch you if you rile them up. On the internet we select our own grou…

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment: Is there any hard data that proves that people are becoming increasingly tribal? Perhaps the number of radicals is the same like it was 20 years ago, but the internet and social media now give those radicals a voice. Because of this it feels like we are becoming increasingly tribal, when in reality we're not. Similar to how the crime rates are going down, but most folks thin…

I believe there is data that shows that online interactions lead to more extreme opinion. You’re seeing this now with racist groups... it’s easy to talk about this stuff and absorb the propaganda in the privacy of your own home, while in public it’s harder to speak of it or interact with the true believers.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#93

Post by tokyodude » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 2:54 PM UTC

npunt wrote: post #17

Suburbs are structurally lonely (your own castle with as little reliance on others as possible), and only ‘work’ when paired with other sources of community. Those sources are disappearing for a variety of reasons but the transfer from physical -> digital, communal [1] -> personalized, eating out -> eating in [2], public space -> private space, friend time —> media time all add up. We also don’t have strong culture a…

Interesting that the my image is the exact opposite.

Downtown no one talks to each other. They live in fancy apartment buildings and go out to their events.

In the Suburbs, neighbors have BBQs, block parties. I knew all the people around the house when I lived in the suburbs. The Garys next door with their bull dog and their daughter Diane living in a detached apartment above the garage. The Alberas with a farm in their backyard. The Kumbs with their kids Gary and Janice and a pool. The Ryans who mister Ryan would always ask me to rub his back and his daughters Kim and Nannet were both my babysitter at one point or another. The Caldwells with their 5 kids Brian, John, Wendy and 2 too small for me to have played with. The Bargayos with Leah and Laura. I can name at least 7 more families.

Since that time living in apartments in cities I've never made friends with a single neighbor.

For most of my life that's been the stereotype. There are plenty of movies about people knowing each other in an ET/Spielberg movie style suburban neighborhood vs the cold hearted city.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#94

Post by fjsolwmv » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 2:55 PM UTC

clarry wrote: post #28

npunt wrote: post #17

Suburbs are structurally lonely (your own castle with as little reliance on others as possible), and only ‘work’ when paired with other sources of community. Those sources are disappearing for a variety of reasons but the transfer from physical -> digital, communal [1] -> personalized, eating out -> eating in [2], public space -> private space, friend time —> media time all add up. We also don’t have strong culture a…

> Suburbs are structurally lonely My European perspective. I wouldn't blame it on suburbs in particular. I would blame most if not all forms of city living. Most people live in flats where nobody wants to have anything to do with their neighbor and there is no communality. People move in and move out, nobody cares. The less you have to hear of your neighbor, the better. FWIW I would rather have a 'burb castle than a…

The reason your city is so bad is in large epart because the families move away to suburbs. In the burbs, you still get disturbances like constant lawnmowers and leaf blowers, at least in lawn-crazy USA.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#95

Post by tekla » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 2:55 PM UTC

I find it strange that I have friends, but I'm always feel alone. I live in a huge city, work has good people that are genuine friends outside of work, but I always feel alone. Everyone talks about meetups and conferences, but I find them to be extremely superficial interactions.

I also only ever see people outside work for social purposes about once a month or two. I've tried going out more, but nothing really ever happens.

I don't get being social/

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#96

Post by fjsolwmv » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 2:56 PM UTC

rubidium wrote: post #76

solatic wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived on a kibbutz after college. It has its own set of problems. The closer you live to people, the more politics enters the picture. The less money there is to go around, the more that politics revolves around the relatively financially trivial. You can't force people to like each other just because they live in close proximity. The problem isn't finding people with shared interests and values, it's in building r…

I live in a Christian community focused on in-common living. Community requires commitment to stick things through. Having a common vision is important. More important is having the commitment to sticking with it, and relationship tools to help keep friendships intact in tough times. Some key tools: -right speech: no gossip, slander, or negative humor -forgiveness: saying I’m sorry when offending or harming someone,…

An what happens when someone violates those principles, especially if the violator is the minister or otherwise powerful?

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#97

Post by JohnBooty » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 2:57 PM UTC

androidgirl wrote: post #84

Is there anything we can do to stop being lonely? Over the past few months, I have made great progress on developing habits to fight my depression. I wake up very early, hike, work on my side projects, and go to communal hacker spaces sometimes. However, I and many others still feel very lonely, it's like we all live in seperate bubbles and can't connect deeply. I have no idea what causes this divide. Have humans alw…

Sounds like you're doing some great things!

    > I have no idea what causes this divide. Have humans always felt like this?

I don't know for sure but I feel very strongly that the answer is "yes."

If I'm correct... for the life of me, I cannot decide whether that's a comforting thought or not! Is it?

I make friends pretty easily but it's tough to really make those deeper connections. It takes years.

Do you ever hike with others? As I get older I feel like team sports and physical stuff like hiking with friends really brings me closer to them. Something about the shared challenge, I guess? Do you feel that way?

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#98

Post by baursak » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 2:57 PM UTC

npunt wrote: post #17

Suburbs are structurally lonely (your own castle with as little reliance on others as possible), and only ‘work’ when paired with other sources of community. Those sources are disappearing for a variety of reasons but the transfer from physical -> digital, communal [1] -> personalized, eating out -> eating in [2], public space -> private space, friend time —> media time all add up. We also don’t have strong culture a…

> Suburbs are structurally lonely

I think it's a factor, but not a major one. Look at Tokyo, for example, which is probably very close to an ideal urban living arrangement in terms of density/comfort. Yet Japan also has a huge problem with "loneliness epidemic", from hikikomori to kodokushi.

I think the biggest factor is what grandpa Marx identified hundred and fifty years ago: human alienation is an intrinsic feature of capitalism itself.

There's tons of literature on this, e.g. see links below, but many people seem to be afraid to even read the arguments, let alone engage.

https://socialistworker.org/2003-2/467/467_09_Alienation.php

https://isreview.org/issue/74/capitalism-and-alienation

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#99

Post by fjsolwmv » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

doitLP wrote: post #54

npunt wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kibbutz (or kibbutz inspired) idea my friends and I have discussed is more about finding people you like and then forming it. I can definitely see it having downsides if you’re not actively involved in its formation.

That’s great, but then you’ll start backsliding on the “diversity and inclusion” scale. I think it’s a constant trade off. As individuals with preferences, humans can’t help but form in groups and out groups.

Making everyone miserable is not the kind of diversity and inclusion we want. It's only acceptable in the sense of "if I'm a miserable out group, the happy in group don't deserve to be happy", which is maybe fairness but not a good goal state. D&I means forming good relations across boundaries, not arbitrary relations.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#100

Post by black-tea » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 3:09 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #88

clarry wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suburbs are structurally lonely My European perspective. I wouldn't blame it on suburbs in particular. I would blame most if not all forms of city living. Most people live in flats where nobody wants to have anything to do with their neighbor and there is no communality. People move in and move out, nobody cares. The less you have to hear of your neighbor, the better. FWIW I would rather have a 'burb castle than a…

> And I think I'd rather get to know the neighbors over at the adjoining castle than the scum in these neighboring flats. Don’t worry — I’m sure the scum feel pretty much the same about you.

The language might seem harsh to you, but you'd understand it if you'd ever lived with or near such people.