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How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

nytimes.com

41–50 of 222 posts

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#41
post #3

It's easy to point out that this is caused by 'the internet' or 'modern technology' replacing the need for human interaction. We feel less alone but are more selective about our friends, live in smaller echo chambers. In meatspace there's this thing where you want people to like you if you meet them, possibly enforced by the fact that someone might punch you if you rile them up. On the internet we select our own grou…

In meat space, where are the places to meet? Where are the weekly town celebrations, or the courtyard everyone retires to? Everything is locked up by money.

[deleted]

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#42
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not believe people are leaving small towns because they can't watch anime or whatever. They're leaving small towns because small towns are not the place to look for education and work. Idk what constitutes small in your book. I grew up in towns of around 10k to 23k people. Had no trouble being a nerd, playing video games, reading, watching anime, coding. Now I'm in a city an order of magnitude larger, and more l…

I lived in the Northeast Megalopolis for a bit before moving to Germany. In the eastern US, I didn’t know anyone prior to moving there for work. The city was very anonymous, to put it lightly. The only people talking to you on the street were homeless. I’d go to meetups and flit around, but it was hard to put down roots where everyone was friends with their college buddies from MIT or Harvard. The school I went to in…

I was going to make an example out of these interactions..

My experience is that in smaller towns you see the same store clerks, mailmen, and other service people again and again and they will recognize you. Some will have a little chat with you, and you get to talk about your life every once in a while, even if just a little. That kind of daily interaction is a heck of a lot more than one might have living in the isolation of a big city where the same service people are too busy serving too many faces to really recognize or chat with you. For a total loner, it could mean a lot.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#43
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not believe people are leaving small towns because they can't watch anime or whatever. They're leaving small towns because small towns are not the place to look for education and work. Idk what constitutes small in your book. I grew up in towns of around 10k to 23k people. Had no trouble being a nerd, playing video games, reading, watching anime, coding. Now I'm in a city an order of magnitude larger, and more l…

I grew up near a town of 1200 that was 30km from a city of 20k. I was considered odd for enjoying reading but luckily went to a feeder high school of 1500 kids so met up with fellow geeks. 10k is not a small town.

Ok, sure.

Did you leave the vicinity of that small town because you were into reading?

Or did you leave it to get an education & a job?

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#44
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In meat space, where are the places to meet? Where are the weekly town celebrations, or the courtyard everyone retires to? Everything is locked up by money.

Starbucks is not locked up by money. On my recent trip to the US, I encountered quite a few (homeless) people in there who came to charge their phones and they got ice water for free.

Starbucks is a very interesting part of this.

It’s success in the 90’s and early 2000’s was largely due to it being a “third place” — the place where people would gather outside of home or the office. It was very social. Very much like the way the corner bar used to serve the same function in decades past.

But then Starbucks decided it didn’t want people hanging around in the stores so much, in order to make room for more merchandise and to increase churn. They were reconfigured to make people go in, spend their money, and then just go. Or worse — use the drive-thru.

I actually met the person responsible for the furniture at Starbucks stores. This was right about when the stores got rid of comfy, squishy chairs and went to those tall, spindly metal backless stools. I asked her how anyone was supposed to sit comfortably on those things for a long period of time. She didn’t have an answer, and then the corporate PR guy stepped in.

She was a small person of Asian descent and, IMO, had designed Starbucks’ furniture for herself and her circle, which fit nicely into Starbucks’ density goals. To me, it seemed like it never occurred to her that people of statistically average size, or even fat people, should be made comfortable in the stores.

If you were a frequent visitor of Starbucks in the 00’s, you’ll remember it was right about then that the coffee chain went from being a neighborhood fixture to just another corporate outpost.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#45
There is a skill to running a friend group which regularly does activities together. It isn't a particularly deep or study-intensive skill, but there are things to learn about how to communicate about logistics and activity-preferences. Once you learn that and are able to practice it, having friends becomes much easier.

It does however also depend on meeting people who also have a reasonable level of logistical and calendar-management skill. Not everyone has this skill and not everyone prioritizes exercising it. If you have contacts who cannot unambiguously agree to meet you at a particular time at a particular pizza restaurant, you have to be willing to search out different contacts who do have sufficient skill, caring, and resources.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#46
When you sculpt your country as a dog-eat-dog community go cry on someone else's shoulder. If you feel that social structures like in Europe are too socialist of communist for your taste you lost the discussion before you started it.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#47
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up near a town of 1200 that was 30km from a city of 20k. I was considered odd for enjoying reading but luckily went to a feeder high school of 1500 kids so met up with fellow geeks. 10k is not a small town.

Ok, sure. Did you leave the vicinity of that small town because you were into reading? Or did you leave it to get an education & a job?

Both. People ask if I will return to my home town when I retire and “hell no” is always my response.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#48

I blame this on the built environment of the US. Nothing is human scale or people oriented. It's commerce and cost oriented. Very few independent shops in most cities. No concept of a high street or village of shops, no public square, nothing. I'm referring to the post WW2 America. Obviously, you'll find these things in the old core of New England and parts of the South.

That sounds like a old, outdated stereotype from a 1990’s cartoon.

Many (most?) American cities of any size have spent the last 20-25 years trying hard to make their cities more pedestrian friendly. Some even require that any new building over xx floors have street-level retail or other gathering places in order to make urban life more vibrant.

Unfortunately, success is scattered. It’s a chicken-and-egg problem. But as more people move to cities, things seem to be improving.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#49
post #38

The thesis from Sebastian Junger’s book Tribes esplains it best: when a community has a common stressor, that strengthens the social cohesion. An incredible point made was that Israel has the lowest sucide rate of all the third world countries, and guess what he attributes it to? Mandatory draft. The common stressor that every single countryman can empathasize with each other about is war. While it sounds depressing…

I'd like to read that book someday, but doesn't "stressor" seems too negative. Why not the more neutral "cause"?

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#50
The non-PC argument here is that diversity directly opposed to community, and I think there's some truth to it. If everyone in an area has lived there for their entire lives, it doesn't really matter if it's apartment buildings, a small high-density European-style town, or suburbs. If the rate of migration in/out is low enough, newcomers assimilate, assuming the society is welcoming and they interact.

There are lots of places where immigration (both within the US and internationally) is very high, and where people often only intend to live for a while for work, so there's not much in the way of community, and people don't make much of an investment in building institutions (beyond their immediate household and workplace).

It's ok in technology or other well-connected professions (because I probably care more about my interactions online and at conferences with the ~200 or so security people from around the world that I closely follow, vs. anyone from my home town or where I've ever physically lived), but for anyone else, it probably sucks a lot. The only culture I've ever seen which seems to deal with that level of constant migration in anything approaching a functional way is the military, and there it's due to an overarching identity, lots of highly artificial forms of identity (the "unit", rivalries, etc.), and lots of traditions and institutions actively encouraged.

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