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Just fucking figure it out

scriptmag.com

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Re: Just fucking figure it out

#31
post #30
post #27

I know nothing about the entertainment industry, but this idea of 'putting in your dues' by working your way up from a menial position based on personal relationships has always seemed naive. Either you can do something or you can't, and working as a dogsbody isn't going to impart those skills. This advice seems like the equivalent of telling someone who wants to be a game programmer to start in the QA department. Yo…

Supply and demand; the supply of people who want to be writers is too high, and you are going to have to go to great lengths to distinguish yourself or get really lucky. As others point out this may not be the only way in, but don't expect anything to be easy or even merely hard, because every metaphorical door into the place is jammed tight with people trying to get in. We get the same effect in our industry with ga…

I think this is a common problem for any programming job that's particularly visible or technical. Most programming jobs are boring, frankly, and there are a lot of very smart people in the industry fighting for the few stimulating, high-status, technically-challenging jobs. For example, anything to do with aerospace seems to have competition that puts the games industry to shame.

Re: Just fucking figure it out

#32
post #27

I know nothing about the entertainment industry, but this idea of 'putting in your dues' by working your way up from a menial position based on personal relationships has always seemed naive. Either you can do something or you can't, and working as a dogsbody isn't going to impart those skills. This advice seems like the equivalent of telling someone who wants to be a game programmer to start in the QA department. Yo…

"I know nothing about the entertainment industry..."

Then maybe you shouldn't speak about it as if you do. I have heard the same advice in this article from a number of people working as tv writers (either reading articles, or as part of my mfa in creative writing), and it does seem like the vast majority of them only got where they are by "working their way up". The idea that you can just make something good enough that people can't ignore it is, in fact, the view that is hopelessly naive. It isn't like the internet where you can easily achieve massive distribution. You have to get it in the hands of a very small number of people who are swamped by an incredibly large number of people in the exact same situation as you.

The amount of good content that is generated by writers is overwhelming and, in fact, incredibly easy to ignore. Not saying you can't point to success stories of people who produced their own stuff. You can just point to more stories of people who lost a lot of money producing their own stuff and have nothing to show for it. Building relationships certainly seems to be a more reliable way to go about breaking into the industry.

Re: Just fucking figure it out

#33
The Paris Review ran a series of interviews with successful writers. The one thing they had in common was a fixed, immutable writing schedule. A schedule impervious to deaths of family members (some will take offense to this, but writers aren't necessarily nice people--I grew up with one).

I'm reminded of an alt.writers post from the annals of USENET.

"...  My opinion is that if you want to be a good novelist, start by being a bad novelist, not by becoming a good magazine article writer.  Start at the top and work down -- don't start at the bottom and work up.

On the other hand, I know people for whom "start small" has worked.  But it doesn't for me."

Re: Just fucking figure it out

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I don't believe that there are fantastic scripts out there not getting made. The crap we see is the best there is, sadly. (I have several friends in the movie industry.)

I read this in the article, " You have to be an amazing writer, the best writer people have ever read… and you have to have a large Rolodex of personal/professional contacts who will hire you, rehire you, support you, recommend you." Based on what I see on TV I have to believe that the Rolodex counts for far more than the writing skill because there's a ton of crap getting produced. On the bright side, there's way mo…

I agree that there's a lot of terrible stuff being produced, and you can go to any indie film festival and see movies with great scripts. But when you drop below the A list and look at the marginal, non-blockbuster movies, do you really need a good script to make money? Do producers and directors need a good writer? Is a good script or a good writer an asset to them at all?

To put it another way, what is a "good" script from the point of view of the movie industry, and how many people actually want to write one, and would be willing to put their real name on it?

If you look outside the blockbusters, and even at many blockbusters themselves, most scripts aren't that good. I know a few people who watch a lot of terrible movies who are kind of allergic to quality, or at least allergic to the aspiration to quality. They are tolerant of crap and want their movies to be tolerant, too. A friend of mine is a huge fan of horror and action movies, and the only movie he has ever walked out of was "The Thin Red Line." Why did that movie offend him, out of all the movies he's seen? It wasn't because it was bad. (He and I saw "Deuce Bigalo: European Gigolo" in the theater.) It offended him because it insulted his taste. It aspired to be better than the movies he liked. That's what I'm guessing, anyway.

So if you're in the movie industry and trying to get a non-A-list movie made, you have to think about who's going to go see it. Writing a "good" script by your own standards may be a mistake. Maybe writing a "good" script only proves you don't understand the business and won't be an asset to the people who can help you. Maybe showing some hustle, some talent at getting noticed, and some crass instincts is necessary, not to draw attention to your good writing -- nobody gives a shit about your writing -- but because hustle, self-promotion, and crassness is how you prove you can succeed in the industry and help them make money in the future.

Re: Just fucking figure it out

#35
post #27

I know nothing about the entertainment industry, but this idea of 'putting in your dues' by working your way up from a menial position based on personal relationships has always seemed naive. Either you can do something or you can't, and working as a dogsbody isn't going to impart those skills. This advice seems like the equivalent of telling someone who wants to be a game programmer to start in the QA department. Yo…

Watch Charlie Brooker's (foul-mouthed) guide to getting a job in TV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyg2a72uV4

In fact, most of his Screenwipe/Newswipe series is worth a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpVTUdfcEMg&feature=relat...

Re: Just fucking figure it out

#36
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, correct, correct. Television (and music and film, for that matter) are hardly a meritocracy. What ends up on screens and CDs isn't determined by quality, at least not primarily. There are fantastic scripts out there, masterpieces that will never get made. Crap gets turned into two-hundred million dollar blockbusters. [EDIT: This gets voted down why exactly?]

Because I don't believe that there are fantastic scripts out there not getting made. The crap we see is the best there is, sadly. (I have several friends in the movie industry.)

There were 70,000 new scripts registered with the WGA last year. 70 spec script sold. (Specs are scripts that writers just write on their own, without getting hired by a studio first.) Of those, one in ten will get made into a movie. Thats 7 out of 70000 odds. One-one-hundredth of a percent.

At that level, I think it's possible that some fantastic scripts slip through the cracks.

There's the highly prestigious Nicholl Fellowship, run by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, that awards up to 10 fellows a year based on their sample scripts. Scripts judged to be outstanding by actual respected Academy members. Most of those won't sell either, although the writers will get jobs out of it.

The Black List has become more political in recent years, but it's a list of great scripts that don't get made.

The Coen Brothers and Woody Allen seem to be able to make whatever the hell they want, but other geniuses like Scorcese and even Spielberg have projects they've been trying to get off the ground for years, and haven't yet succeeded.

Based on all that, I'm inclined to believe there are plenty of great scripts that don't get produced.

Re: Just fucking figure it out

#37
post #27

I know nothing about the entertainment industry, but this idea of 'putting in your dues' by working your way up from a menial position based on personal relationships has always seemed naive. Either you can do something or you can't, and working as a dogsbody isn't going to impart those skills. This advice seems like the equivalent of telling someone who wants to be a game programmer to start in the QA department. Yo…

It's not really an entertainment industry thing.

Someone who's paid his dues by getting a PHD from CMU is more likely to get a job at Google than some guy who just read books on his own. Sure the guy who read books might create some startup, get some heat, and get bought out by google. And that can happen to a writer outside of the industry. But all things being equal, the smart money goes on the PHD.

And sure, every once in a long while you can get someone like Ross Perot, who mounts a serious Presidential campaign with ZERO political experience, but the overwhelming majority of serious presidential candidates paid their dues.

I'm sure the analogy can be applied to about any industry out there.

Re: Just fucking figure it out

#38
post #27

I know nothing about the entertainment industry, but this idea of 'putting in your dues' by working your way up from a menial position based on personal relationships has always seemed naive. Either you can do something or you can't, and working as a dogsbody isn't going to impart those skills. This advice seems like the equivalent of telling someone who wants to be a game programmer to start in the QA department. Yo…

"I know nothing about the entertainment industry..." Then maybe you shouldn't speak about it as if you do. I have heard the same advice in this article from a number of people working as tv writers (either reading articles, or as part of my mfa in creative writing), and it does seem like the vast majority of them only got where they are by "working their way up". The idea that you can just make something good enough…

Is working for someone as a personal assistant really 'building relationships', though? I suspect that personal anecdotes are poor proof in this case because the huge number of low-level employees who pay their dues and get nothing out of it are hardly in a position to give advice on how to break into show business. On the other hand, if most people are trying to get in through relationships, then you would expect that most people who were successful would have done it that way. It doesn't say much about your relative chances with either approach.

Re: Just fucking figure it out

#39
post #27

I know nothing about the entertainment industry, but this idea of 'putting in your dues' by working your way up from a menial position based on personal relationships has always seemed naive. Either you can do something or you can't, and working as a dogsbody isn't going to impart those skills. This advice seems like the equivalent of telling someone who wants to be a game programmer to start in the QA department. Yo…

True. You obviously don't know much about this industry. I worked for Disney Studios for a while after they bought Infoseek where I worked. Th clash of cultures was evident there as it is here. The main measures of success in the entertainment biz are qualitative, not quantitative despite what financial data and audience measurements can lead you to believe. There are many more talented writers than there are producers to produce their scripts. It's all about relationships and it's also about talent too but talent alone is just not enough. So I repeat the advice: just figure it the fuck out ;-)

Re: Just fucking figure it out

#40
post #27

I know nothing about the entertainment industry, but this idea of 'putting in your dues' by working your way up from a menial position based on personal relationships has always seemed naive. Either you can do something or you can't, and working as a dogsbody isn't going to impart those skills. This advice seems like the equivalent of telling someone who wants to be a game programmer to start in the QA department. Yo…

I think your perception that the entertainment industry is in anyway a meritocracy is naive. There are always exceptions to the rule but for the most part it is still a "it's not what you know it's who you know" industry. This discussion reminds me of one of my favorite all time bumper stickers: "Real Musicians Have Day Jobs."
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