China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced • Hacker News Board

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#131

Post by Juliate » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

mavdi wrote: post #123

skrebbel wrote: post #113

I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't that much of a problem. So because Chinese rulers have oppressed and mistreated their people for so long that their methods have become ingrained in the national psyche, it's somehow more OK? George Orwell predicted that "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human f…

Historical context of a country matters a lot when judging the extent of a surveillance problem. Chinese are terrified of chaos and disorder, which has in the past has led to civil wars. For them the first priority is keeping the status quo. Just take a look at the death toll of these wars: https://www.businessinsider.com/bloodiest-conflicts-in-chine... 25 Million casualties, and that's in the 17th century. Compare t…

That's not a valid excuse for a totalitarian, unfair system.

Because these systems have all been torn down by some kind of civil war - there is no other way, because of the nature of power and the structures it uses.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#132

Post by dnomad » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #113

I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't that much of a problem. So because Chinese rulers have oppressed and mistreated their people for so long that their methods have become ingrained in the national psyche, it's somehow more OK? George Orwell predicted that "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human f…

> China is unique in that it's been all about oppressing and abusing the population as heavily as possible, without pause, ever since the first emperors gave the country its foreign name.

This is such complete nonsense. I think it's hilarious how totally and completely misguided about China that Westerners, and Americans in particular, actually are. It boggles the belief just how much complete nonsense is spouted here on reddit and in the Western press. This is the very essence of people being disconnected from reality and constructing a new reality in accordance with their ideology.

Reality check: go to China and actually talk to the Chinese themselves. Radical idea! Social credit is extremely popular in China [1]. The social credit system is also not new. Anybody who understands how Chinese society has always worked would understand that this is the application of new technology to ideas that are nearly three thousand years old.

Anyways resume your ideological freak-out.

[1] https://www.merics.org/en/blog/chinas-social-credit-systems-...

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#133

Post by virmundi » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:17 PM UTC

Think about how great this will be in the US. Finally, we can tag people who think incorrectly. They can be given low scores. All those people in fly overstates can just remain there. Hopefully the thought of a 72 hour car ride to a civilized city will give them pause when promoting fake news like Bernie's plan for universal healthcare is bad. It will be a wonderful day for the country when we can correct their wrong-thoughts.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#134

Post by paganel » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

mavdi wrote: post #123

skrebbel wrote: post #113

I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't that much of a problem. So because Chinese rulers have oppressed and mistreated their people for so long that their methods have become ingrained in the national psyche, it's somehow more OK? George Orwell predicted that "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human f…

Historical context of a country matters a lot when judging the extent of a surveillance problem. Chinese are terrified of chaos and disorder, which has in the past has led to civil wars. For them the first priority is keeping the status quo. Just take a look at the death toll of these wars: https://www.businessinsider.com/bloodiest-conflicts-in-chine... 25 Million casualties, and that's in the 17th century. Compare t…

Mores do change, people do evolve (I know that's not the PC term to use, but that's the reality of it), there's no reason to allow ourselves to allow the Government or any other Government-like entity to dictate our lives only because some centuries (or decades ago) there was a deadly civil war going on. Just think about the English and John Locke, who wrote his "Second Treatise of Government" just a few decades after the English king had been decapitated as the result of a civil war. Without people like Locke the world would have been a worst place now and we wouldn't probably have this conversation at all.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#135

Post by jobigoud » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

beaconstudios wrote: post #83

jobigoud wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The social credit score goes way beyond speaking out. It touches all the minor infractions, speeding tickets, jaywalking, not paying your rent or other debt on time, etc.

This has only just been implemented though, so we've yet to see the reaction of the populace.

Parts of it are already in place. You can listen to this Planet Money episode #871 from last month where they interview a guy that has his mug displayed on a billboard and people hear a warning message when they call his phone, because he couldn't repay a loan.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/10/26/661163105/epis...

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#136

Post by edejong » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

China: judge, jury, executioner?

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#137

Post by lifeformed » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating. The credit system has a lot of issues but it just does what it says on the tin, measuring the same credit card metrics, and had been around for a while without much change. The social rating system seeps into every aspect of a person's life and had no limits for expansion. It's a tool ripe for abuse and political control.

Think of all the gamification bullshit we've dealt with, and realize that it's now going to be deployed on a massive scale to shape the behaviors, incentives, and punishments of the whole populace, wielded by a government known to persecute subsets of it.

And I'm sure it's going to be used for some good. There will be a lot of good results that's come of it, and that will be its selling point. But it undoubtedly will also be used to suppress specific ideas and people. It will be a massively effective too for that. Think of the coded racism used in the Southern Strategy in US politics as explained by Lee Atwater. By abstracting away everything and converting it to whatever statistics you want, you have total plausible deniability over any targeted oppression you want.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#138

Post by ancorevard » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:20 PM UTC

Just imagine if the National Socialist party in Germany would have had this in the 1930-40s. They could have been even more “efficient” in taking out the various groups of people they found to be of “low social value”.

For everyone but those who believe in powerful centralized governments this is a nightmare scenario.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#139

Post by Ragnarork » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:20 PM UTC

PavlovsCat wrote: post #122

PavlovsCat wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We will arrive at a moment of sufficent self-alienation where we can contemplate our own destruction [as a species] as in a static spectacle. -- Walter Benjamin So we're repeating the Nazis now, gladly, because that's easier than learning from those who made all that effort, saw and went through so much atrocities and suffering, to to learn from that, and to relay that to us, to impress the importance of it on us?…

Oh, so just downvoting, just censoring, just like killing people, is the "argument". Every click without a word proves my point without diminishing a word I said. Giving totalitarianism an inch, rationalizing obedience to it for just one minute, has these results. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Apparently HN worships technology more so than it values the human condition.

A 1.3 billion people totalitarian """experiment""" (which already negatively impacts millions) is not a problem because "inevitable" or "interesting to observe".

Authoritarianism still has many bright days ahead with such people.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#140

Post by dnomad » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:23 PM UTC

Hilarious. I wasn't even done with the comment and it's already being rapidly downvoted. The total lack of intellectual integrity on HN is a sight to behold. It's really funny to watch the advocates of free speech and discussion rapidly downvote anything that contradicts their ideology.