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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#461

Post by noufalibrahim »

Radim wrote: post #101
noufalibrahim wrote: post #66

I run a mentoring organisation which I started because of my interest in teaching. I used to help the graduates find jobs that they liked. After a couple of years, I started a small services company of my own and started to hire mostly out of my own student pool. I'm very happy with the decision. I develop rapport with the students (and later employees). A 4 month training program, while beneficial for the students,…

That's what we did, too. As a company, we formalized our open source R&D activities ( https://github.com/RaRe-Technologies ) and launched a "Student Incubator" programme. Junior people around the world get to benefit from the mentorship, and we get access to talented people early on. Without that much internal risk, since it's open source. The problem is exactly as you describe: scaling. Mentoring is an extremely tim…

Fascinating. I'd love to chat directly and exchange notes. Can you email me? I'm nibrahim on github and that has my contact information.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#462

Post by ksec »

Matthias247 wrote: post #440
ksec wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, are these total earning? in USD? Because many companies (especially in US ) have performance bonus, stock etc... where their actual "yearly" earning is way higher. And just to make it clear, The difference between a junior Dev and Super Senior Dev is only 3x? ( I am still baffled by how widely different the dev salary are in different region )

In most countries and companies of the world programmers are not paid any bonuses, and even less so RSUs. It's mostly just a base salary. And yes, the differences might be normal. In germany it's even less. One might get around 50k€ fresh from university. But there will be far less than 1% of roles which offer a compensation of >= 100k. At least in engineering, management is different.

Yes in most countries, but most ( English ) article are written from a American perspective. And they have lots of different way calculating their earnings.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#463

Post by GordonS »

CaRDiaK wrote: post #320
GordonS wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually quite a common arrangement at larger companies in the UK. I don't have a problem with it myself - it's simple to understand, and the company is giving you something of high value, and retaining your services for a minimum period in return.

It is common in the UK and normally they are well thought out and have balanced benefit for both parties. I did dodge a bullet once in my career though where a bunch of mid level devs were proposed a course to take them to senior (and a 5% raise) but it came with a 2.5 year retainer. I read all the docs carefully and I wasn't convinced by the course content so didn't take it. On the day the course was to begin, one m…

By 'course', I had assumed the parent meant something valuable: a degree, masters, PhD or well-recognised certification, such as PRINCE2. But reading your comment, and again that of the parent, I'm now not so sure!

Anyway, my point is that my response had made those assumptions, as that's the kind of arrangement I know is common.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#464

Post by BuckRogers »

aphextron wrote: post #28

>I ask this because I'm 4-years-experienced as a front-end UI/interaction dev, nothing but glowing references, looking for another, similar, position (regular, not senior or lead) and have had...way too many interviews and rejections, and can't understand why companies are such sticklers for interested devs to have Every Single Box in their list of requirements checked when it would take days or a couple weeks to lea…

Count me in the exact same situation. I left my last job because my mother in law's house was destroyed by Hurricane Harvey. I wanted to help fix her home, then move back to Chicago, and realign my career where I wanted it to go.

It has been a total disaster, exact same thing you quoted and your statement as well. Will I ever dare try to help someone else to that extent again? Or make an effort to better my career? No. Lesson learned, we're lucky to have jobs at all. I've done what both of you guys did, but for 6 months now. I feel at the limit of my sanity from all the interviews. I have so much to offer, a very solid background, solid references, I'm very well spoken and convincing- but I'm just not good enough or they're trolling the market as you so very well said. I have 10 years of experience, 8 in devops and 2 in webdev. I've started telling employers- tell me your stack and I'll be up to speed before my first day. I'm willing to work for peanuts.

At this point, I realize that I've picked my passion, but chose my career very poorly. My last company told me that the rule that HR had set for hiring was senior devs from the US, entry to mid level exclusively from from India. Going back in time, I'd have nothing to do with software. I would've picked a licensed profession, bonus points for one that offers a union. I'd probably become an electrician or do HVAC and start my own company.

I guess that's what opioids are for, to end ourselves. We are apparently not wanted nor needed in this industry, possibly the economy as a whole. I'm going to keep applying and interviewing, but I've now accepted that I'm going to slip out of the middle class. No way around it. Without my wife's public teacher's health insurance, I'd be in big trouble.

This economy and job market that everyone is talking about is a lie. If you're investment class, sure, things are great. There's an abundance of guys like us walking around. All the news articles saying how great it is had me completely fooled, I thought it was time to make my move. I'm not complaining about any of this, I'm tough as nails and forge on in every situation I've been in life. I can handle it, but I do think there's a good chance nothing comes up here I'm going to be delivering pizzas pretty soon. I do feel sorry for all the other folks who aren't as polished, have my resume, no criminal record, good credit, and without knowing someone at a company, outside of some very good luck, I don't think most of them have a chance in hell.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#465

Post by scarejunba »

sleepychu wrote: post #359
scarejunba wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what his friend gives them. I can beat it _and_ for those who prefer just working on technical design and code with an experienced team, I can offer them that. No forced mentorship taking up your time. Since senior engineer mentorship is a different thing, I can easily give them a better job than the "you have to help train junior engineers" guy. Altogether, this is the best approach. The guys at tw…

Care to disclose where you work/what your org does?

No, I'd rather not. Angry HNers are best kept on the other side of the online/offline divide. Pleasant HNers I hope to see in real life :)

The downside is I can't recruit off this user handle but c'est la vie.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#466

Post by yyt_x »

This question resonates with me because I am a junior dev (bootcamp background, 20 months into my career), and am currently on the verge of switching jobs. I am very thankful to my current employer for hiring me and giving me a shot to grow into this career and treating me extremely well in the meantime.

The thing is, they pay below the market rate, my wife is pregnant and not very employable because she doesnt speak the local language, and the 40% pay increase would allow me to get the mortgage to buy the apartment we live in. Otherwise we will be priced out of living in the city. I just feel really guilty, but my responsibility to my family exceeds my commitment to my employer...

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#467

Post by sharemywin »

jbob2000 wrote: post #444
marcus_holmes wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't have that experience. Possibly because I didn't see this great team as being made up of "misfit toys", which is a bit denigrating to be honest. My team was mostly made up of awesome people who were being overlooked by completely shit recruitment processes.

That’s the story of the island of misfit toys though; They were still fun toys to play with, but they didn’t fit the mould, and so didn’t get sold. I don’t find it denigrating, but I also was a bit of a punk in high school, so it’s a label I’m comfortable with.

I think you might be comfortable with it. But, any one that isn't would smile and take your offer then leave as soon as some one comes along that doesn't call them a toy.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#468

Post by sharemywin »

ivansavz wrote: post #118
oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years…

Pay them enough to stay?

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#469

Post by xenophonf »

You say that "it would take days or a couple weeks to learn XYZ framework/library/whatever to the level of competence that is required for the position", but in my experience finding people capable of self-learning XYZ framework/library/whatever are exceedingly rare and almost impossible to interview for.

Conversely, teaching is really, really hard especially when you have other work to do. There are just so many gaps in a newbie's knowledge that, unless you're prepared for it, add significant friction to support and development operations. I would dearly love to hire someone at whom I can throw work and have them mostly be able to figure it out on their own. Instead, I've had to hire people who don't even know the fundamentals of my various technology stacks. This means I spend a _lot_ of time teaching new hires how to (e.g.) use the Unix command line before I can even think about teaching them how to follow our good current web server deployment practices, use our version controlled configuration management infrastructure, and troubleshoot problems in the front or back ends. Meanwhile, my management expects me to complex offload work items (including service package design!) onto junior staff while not taking into account the effort required to train them. Here on the other side of the hiring line, it's frustrating to say the least.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#470

Post by pydeveloper22 »

tmaly wrote: post #439

I trained a guy that was a analyst and now he is a great dev in my team. I am working on getting another non-programmer to train to learn Python. I find its much easier to get devs this way. You just have to have a self motivated person willing to learn.

Hello tmaly,

I read your older and recent posts by you that your company is looking for junior/mid developers at Interactive Brokers in the CT/NYC area.

Well, I checked out the Interactive Brokers site and they have at least openings available listed on there what looks to be for Junior and mid-level Developers.

So, I see that you work for Interactive Brokers. Don't know if that still holds up but I wanted to check if the Junior/mid level Developer job is still available?

I'm a guy who has been going the self-taught route where I enjoy using and working with Python as far as learning purposes go.

And after quickly reading your post here I figured to reach out and try a somewhat different approach than the old cover letter and resume email method and contact you if you may have any info to this current opening at your company?

So with that said, here I am..and I wanted to inquire to find out if this opening is still available? If so, do you have a contact email to learn more about this position and the things you require in regards to the nature of the job?

My apologies in advance that this may not be the response to your post that you were looking for but I figured why not take a chance and try something different to reach out and learn what I can do to improve my chances to be part of the Interactive Brokers dev team.

Any help in this matter will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

--K

Also, tmaly... please feel free to contact me at pydeveloper22@gmail.com

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