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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#331

Post by torgian »

oh-kumudo wrote: post #169
ivansavz wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years…

Realistically it will work only when the job market liquidity is low. Think of Japan, where changing job is like a lifetime event, training is graciously provided, since the firm assumed that your loyalty is guaranteed. Or in case of some companies in China, where they can sue you if you quit your job before the agreed years are met on your contract. Both seems undesirable to me personally.

Shit, in China, it’s very common to jump ship after one or two years to get at 10-30% raise in many industries. Many of my students have done that.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#332

Post by enraged_camel »

gambiting wrote: post #294
speedplane wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe that? Being outside and getting exercise is really nice, but using your brain is so much nicer. Would you really give up a job that is intellectually stimulating for one that uses you mostly for your mechanical abilities?

Yes. I have worked manual jobs in the past(repairing bicycles, working at a warehouse and as a driver and for a while at a semi-construction job that involved being outside a lot) and I feel like overall I was more consistently happy. I would come home and do coding in my own time to satisfy the intellectual needs.

Yes, but if you do construction or manual labor of any kind as a living (i.e. for years, decades), it leaves your body frail and broken. With programming, you only have to watch for relatively minor things like carpal tunnel and bad posture.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#334

Post by CSMastermind »

For one, you have to pay a senior developer to train them for a year plus before they'll really be productive. And secondly, there's not really a cost saving. If I hire a senior at $200,000 a year they're likely 10 times more productive than the boot camp grad I can hire at $80k a year or the offshore contractor I can hire at $20k a year. Plus that senior dev will be able to think about good architecture, team dynamics, bring industry experience, etc.

Now I do think there is a place for hiring interns and new college graduates once your development org reaches a certain size or the company is at a certain level of stability.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#335

Post by sergiosgc »

arvinsim wrote: post #265
patmcc wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>That's a 200%+ increase that is very difficult for even modern businesses to take sitting down. Because businesses would rather have a person leave and then hire someone at 1.5x or 2x their salary than just pay the first person 2x what they were making the year before. This happens all the time . Employers want to have 2x people at 1x prices, and that doesn't work for long.

I am not business savvy so I am curious why businesses choose to do this.

It's very simple, really. If you only raise salaries on personnel rotation, you do not have to raise salaries of those employees that do not jump ship. You save a bundle if you have a large workforce.

This attitude introduces a skew where your workforce gets progressively filled with people who do not switch jobs. It's a dangerous outcome, to be managed with care. If you get stuck with those who do not switch jobs because they are too incompetent, you have a big problem. If you manage to get those who are competent but content, and not very concerned with higher earnings, you have the ideal result: stable, competent, performant team, with controlled costs.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#336

Post by mscasts »

oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

In my country you will have to switch if you want any significant increase in salary. At least at the overwhelming majority of firms.

Loyalty goes both ways and unfortunately most companies doesn't seem to understand that where I am from.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#337

Post by mooreds »

dharmab wrote: post #33
aphextron wrote: post #28

>I ask this because I'm 4-years-experienced as a front-end UI/interaction dev, nothing but glowing references, looking for another, similar, position (regular, not senior or lead) and have had...way too many interviews and rejections, and can't understand why companies are such sticklers for interested devs to have Every Single Box in their list of requirements checked when it would take days or a couple weeks to lea…

Don't quit your job without your next source of income secured.

By the way, the next source doesn't have to be a full time job. Explore contracting as well. I have found that to be a great alternative to an FTE position, and have bounced back and forth between FTE and contractor. (Preferably on your own but through a body shop works too.)

It's not exactly the same skillset, but you'll understand and appreciate sales and accounts receivable much more after a stint of doing that yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#338

Post by krapp »

enraged_camel wrote: post #332
gambiting wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I have worked manual jobs in the past(repairing bicycles, working at a warehouse and as a driver and for a while at a semi-construction job that involved being outside a lot) and I feel like overall I was more consistently happy. I would come home and do coding in my own time to satisfy the intellectual needs.

Yes, but if you do construction or manual labor of any kind as a living (i.e. for years, decades), it leaves your body frail and broken. With programming, you only have to watch for relatively minor things like carpal tunnel and bad posture.

I'm reasonably certain that plenty of people do manual labor for a living who don't end up "frail and broken", and that decades spent in a sedentary position can have detrimental health effects beyond mere bad posture. And carpal tunnel is no joke.

Either can be taken to an unhealthy extreme, but on balance the human body benefits more from physical exertion than the lack of it.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#339

Post by wink »

Only anecdata, but if the team (company) is small and you're chronically understaffed, there may not be enough time for "training" - maybe this is a bit skewed towards "more generalists than specialists" - but I've had this experience.

Let me try to give a only somewhat made-up example. If you have 3 people doing a big web application in one stack, I see no problem having 1 or 2 of those 3 be relatively junior. If you work with 5 different tech stacks that keep different parts of the company running, it might be a bit hard to get someone to learn 2 programming languages in addition to needing a little advice in their main tech stack.

Not saying it's a valid reason, but if a lot of your hard decisions are actually important architectural ones and not small "how will this small piece of software be developed", senior people are actually a lot more important than usual, than say, in a team doing feature development.

Also about your definition of Junior.. depending on where you work, 4 years often is not really junior anymore - elsewhere you'll not progress to non-junior until a few years more...

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#340

Post by mooreds »

ng12 wrote: post #85
torte wrote: post #9

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I would expect that each newly hired developer (be it junior, mid-level, senior) can and will take time to do train and improve him/herself. I don't mind this being on job time, as long it is not all day. Most times this is even required when doing a task, because no one knows everything, even with X+ years of experience. If this mindset is not there and a newly hired developer…

Absolutely agreed. What's implicit here is the risk that somebody just won't work out. I once invested a huge amount of effort trying to train a junior dev and after 3 months he still didn't "get it". Not only was he unproductive but I was basically operating at half capacity for those three months. It was a huge exercise in frustration and something I will never attempt again.

I am sure that was very frustrating! Did you end up letting him go? It sounds loke the job wasn't a fit for his skillsets.

I will say that I have hired junior folks and seen them thrive after three months (take on more work with more autonomy) and that leveling up was so great to see. Plus it made them a better developer and more effective foe the company.

That's the flip side.

And it's not like a senior developer is a sure bet to be effective either (though I grant you they are, all things considered, a better bet).

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