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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#321

Post by TeMPOraL »

collyw wrote: post #267
ryanobjc wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact in the good big companies, they crave for employee growth. Time and money for training, meaningful career growth, and pay growth, major tech switches without changing jobs. I find that small companies are often much worse in all these metrics. As a jr employee they’ll never rise to chief architect - your friend, the cofounder, has that job. And is never giving it up. Plus thanks to cash crunch, making shortcu…

Big companies will spend money on training but personally I have learned a lot more at smaller places because I was able to explore a lot more and my contributions had a lot more impact on the buisiness overall.

So in a sense, small companies are the training. You pop in, learn what you can, and jump ship.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#323

Post by TeMPOraL »

speedplane wrote: post #293
gambiting wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very frequently consider getting any job that involves being outside and doing physical work over sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day. I like programming, but I hate not being outside for vast majority of the day and what this lifestyle is doing to my body.

Do you really believe that? Being outside and getting exercise is really nice, but using your brain is so much nicer. Would you really give up a job that is intellectually stimulating for one that uses you mostly for your mechanical abilities?

> Would you really give up a job that is intellectually stimulating for one that uses you mostly for your mechanical abilities?

Do you find programming jobs intellectually stimulating beyond junior level? Maybe I have really bad luck, but all that I seem to be able to find - and see my friends doing - are the computer equivalents of lowest-level construction work. I usually have to step into other people's competences (e.g. contributing UX or even domain-level ideas) to get anything interesting from them.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#324

Post by locklock »

gigatexal wrote: post #190
myrloc wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious - are you in Germany on a visa?

I have a residency permit aka a Bleue Karte - which is tied to my employer. I have to maintain a job and it has to pay above 50k euros but it’s good for 5 years.

I don't think German Blue Cards are tied to a specific employer. As far as I know you only have to let the authority know if you change jobs less than a year after getting the card, and beyond that you just need to make above the money limit and you can work anywhere.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#325

Post by dostrin2 »

Maybe the small companies that are happy to employ ‘junior’ developers struggle to find them in the first place. We are hiring @ theurge.com but not sure where to find junior talent. Please email us if you are interested in roles in Sydney Australia.

Hi@theurge.com

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#327

Post by leonroy »

oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

So here’s something the boss of my previous company did when I went to work for him straight out of university.

First year I earned a low junior dev salary. Third year after delivering a few projects and company financials improving I received a 66% raise. Fifth year a 50% raise.

And I was not the only one. The idea of raises pegged to inflation seemed absurd in our company when based on performance and company income we could increase our salary by 50% or more every few years.

Sure we had one or two devs who came, trained up, got bored and moved on but by and large if you’re clear that salary increases are not always going to be single percentage points you get more longevity out of your employees.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#328

Post by slavoingilizov »

zelos wrote: post #313
oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

But surely if they're leaving for a better job elsewhere, it's because the company that trained them hasn't increased their salary in line with their new abilities?

Playing devil's advocate here, but if this is the expectation, then it perfectly explains why the problem exists. If the company pays the training cost AND ups the salary consistently for the juniors, then why would they ever hire and train them? They can just hire them after they've been trained elsewhere, pay the higher salaries, but avoid any training and development costs.

This is exactly what happens in the majority of companies, and they only hire seniors. Which is what prompted the OP to ask the question in the first place.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#329

Post by tokyodude »

Be careful what you wish for.

This is the norm in Japan. Students are hired out of college. They often actually have no real programming experience but based on their major they are hired into an engineering track.

Programmers in Japan start at $20k-$25k a year. Many famous Japanese companies have limits set by HR of $60k a year for a programmer regardless of experience.

I'm not saying that's the result you'll get but at least in Japanese culture the fact that the company trained you is at least one small part of feeling an obligation to stay on and that fact the so few people switch jobs is yet another reason salaries don't rise here.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#330

Post by torgian »

I’m kinda curious what a developer with a couple years experience and making his own company would be able to demand back in the states.

I think “apprenticeship “ isn’t a thing in tech. Things change quickly and companies don’t want to pay more money for people to develop software. Mostly because developers are viewed as a cost (a well-paid cost) and not money makers.

And then the ageism problem. my biggest concern is what I will do if my business fails. Would companies even bother looking at me? Who knows shrug I’m in my late thirties and I’m pretty sure no one would hire me for developing, though I could probably be hired as a manger or team lead.

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