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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#201

Post by mixmastamyk »

torte wrote: post #9

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I would expect that each newly hired developer (be it junior, mid-level, senior) can and will take time to do train and improve him/herself. I don't mind this being on job time, as long it is not all day. Most times this is even required when doing a task, because no one knows everything, even with X+ years of experience. If this mindset is not there and a newly hired developer…

On th job training doesn’t normally mean in a classroom, but reading docs and asking questions.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#203

Post by ryanobjc »

stormbrew wrote: post #181
ivansavz wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the weird thing — they (because there are two cofounders) were actually paying very competitive salaries (for the local market). I was impressed to hear what some of them were making. So it's not the money. I think what's going on is that after a year at any job you start to see the problems with the code base, and it starts to get repetitive. It will be like that both in big-co and small-co, but in a differen…

> That's the weird thing — they (because there are two cofounders) were actually paying very competitive salaries (for the local market). I was impressed to hear what some of them were making. So it's not the money. This is only half of what I asked. What about the raises? As someone in another thread chain pointed out, the expected raise from job leaping is maybe 15%. How did the raises your friend gave compare to t…

In fact in the good big companies, they crave for employee growth. Time and money for training, meaningful career growth, and pay growth, major tech switches without changing jobs.

I find that small companies are often much worse in all these metrics. As a jr employee they’ll never rise to chief architect - your friend, the cofounder, has that job. And is never giving it up. Plus thanks to cash crunch, making shortcuts to deliver is common in small companies. Especially since they don’t have a reputation to protect. So quality? Well, maybe.

I recently took 9 weeks off from my bigco FAANG, job to help raise my baby. After the company’s health plan was on the hook for a million in costs (baby born prematurely, spent 3 months in hospital nicu). At no point was I worried about my job or company. I’m happily back on the team in my job cranking away and being productive.

Now tell me my experience would be better in a 12 person startup/shop. I dare you.

Ps: in terms of impact, well I work on a small thing in a sense so only a few million people directly use my product. Big companies have big impact. Lots of guard rails which is nice to no longer make the same basic mistakes over and over.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#204

Post by kotapi »

pascalxus wrote: post #136

First of all the shortage of devs is mostly a myth. Companies that know how to hire don't have problems hiring. the problem is most software companies don't know how to hire and thus have a lot of problems. Or they're located in some impossible location like palo alto or San francisco and try to low ball everyone with salaries under 200K in a location where housing costs 3million$ plus. About hiring junior devs. You…

This is definitely one of the best responses I've read on HN. I agree with this - "try not to take it personally and think any less of yourself. Failing an interview isn't necessarily your failure, it could be the ones who interviewed you that failed. "

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#205

Post by throwawayemp263 »

ivansavz wrote: post #118
oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years…

I did this. I landed my first job out of school way below industry rates (like 2/3 typical junior in my area, mostly because I'm bad at negotiation), got a tiny (~2%) salary bump at 6mo and then nothing for a year. I never felt comfortable asking for a big raise, despite learning a lot and contributing a lot, and after a year the bump at 6mo felt more like a slap than anything. I jumped ship when another opportunity arose. They counter offered more than where I was going (double my current salary) but I didn't care, they had already eroded my trust (and confidence) and I didn't want anything to do with them any more (not that I actually said that, gotta follow my M.O.).

My communication skills are my biggest flaw, especially around things like negotiating salary / talking about how I feel with the job. My technical communication is pretty fair, but I turn into a brick wall when we approach higher level meta conversations. I had plenty of opportunity and I wasn't mistreated, but being paid half what you think you're worth for a year with no change in sight really does a number on your confidence as a new player, and I never spoke up about it. I'll accept if that means it's my fault for not getting myself a raise, but I also won't feel bad about leaving after getting on the job training.

If you want to keep your junior employees, pay them what they're worth now not what they were worth 6mo or a year ago. Switching companies is just the only way to force companies to reset the memory of what your salary used to be and reevaluate your value.

That said, based on your other comments itt, that may not be the case in your example.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#206

Post by snarfy »

ivansavz wrote: post #118
oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years…

Pay them more.

Isn't this why most junior devs leave? Because they are getting crap junior dev salaries? Once you've trained them they are no longer junior devs. The market certainly doesn't think so.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#207

Post by mixmastamyk »

bloomca wrote: post #155
rubicon33 wrote: post #12

False premise. There is no shortage of devs. That has been a complete fabrication, made up entirely by big tech companies, in a propaganda push to promote more and more people getting into CS. It's entirely so they can pay developers less.

There is shortage of experienced developers. Big companies can hire more trying to get away from competition, but some people would go to startups anyway (especially recent graduates).

Ageism is a thing. Not many experienced folks under thirty —> more fabrication.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#208

Post by mixmastamyk »

city41 wrote: post #78
rubicon33 wrote: post #12

False premise. There is no shortage of devs. That has been a complete fabrication, made up entirely by big tech companies, in a propaganda push to promote more and more people getting into CS. It's entirely so they can pay developers less.

Then why do developers get contacted by recruiters constantly? Every developer I know gets contacted. Yet no non-tech colleagues I know experience anything similar in their industry. I'm not saying I disagree with you, I'm genuinely curious.

Job reqs kept open but not filled, as mentioned up thread. Recruiters chasing an elusive paycheck just like candidates.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#209

Post by hnthrwy1 »

maxk42 wrote: post #38

The gulf between a senior dev and the average junior is akin to the gulf between a senior dev and the average window washer. The gap is too wide between juniors and seniors. Plus the market is flooded with junior devs. At this moment it's tough -- but not too tough -- to hire a senior dev. But juniors are a dime a dozen.

In what ways is the gap this wide? I tend to think the opposite.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#210

Post by zeroname »

coder543 wrote: post #185
fooker wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok then, can you explain why wages for programming jobs are low-ish in Europe even when there is, apparently, a shortage?

These are just my thoughts, take them with a grain of salt: Success makes more success. If you're a billion dollar company, you can afford to pay more for employees. This lets you hire better developers, which lets you be even more successful. If you're in a poor country and you're trying to start a company... you're still poor. The fact that you need developers doesn't suddenly make you rich enough to afford the sam…

> I'm no professional economist or anything, so I'm sure I'm missing some of the nuances of the situation...

You could've just looked up the economic definition of "shortage". What you're describing is not an economic shortage, it's market equilibrium. Of course there's always more demand than supply for something at a cheaper price than what the actual market price is.

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