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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#141

Post by ben_jones »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #128
ivansavz wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years…

Embed salary upgrades within the employment contract. We already know jumping gives on average a 15% salary increase every two years, so you just have to beat or match that. Now people might still leave for more interesting projects, but you get one of the larger motivational factors out of the way. People often leave because negotiating a salary upgrade is way harder than navigating an interview. So, unless your hid…

The problem from zero to hero is more than that. Entry-level college graduate non-developer positions might net 50-60k even in the Bay Area. So if you hire a 22 year old with a degree at that base and then teach them how to be a react pro over the course of two years they will then be eligible for 100k+ salaries. That's a 200%+ increase that is very difficult for even modern businesses to take sitting down.

If Starbucks starts making coffee 3x as good will people happily start paying $12 for coffee?

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#142

Post by hobofan »

nathanvanfleet wrote: post #129
oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

Kind of curious about what you're saying. Essentially that when the dev is getting up to speed with that training they quickly become more valuable to the company but the company isn't willing to acknowledge it?

One part of their answer is that it might also not be well aligned with their self-interest. Someone right out of college might take any job they can get a hand on (e.g. webdev). Later after they've gained some experience, and also matured more overall, they might notice that ther are other areas they are more interested in (e.g. IoT), which the company doesn't offer and now they are in a position where they can easily choose such a job.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#143

Post by jpttsn »

rubicon33 wrote: post #12

False premise. There is no shortage of devs. That has been a complete fabrication, made up entirely by big tech companies, in a propaganda push to promote more and more people getting into CS. It's entirely so they can pay developers less.

Same thing, different perspective.

If I supply something (dev time, clean water) I think there’s no shortage; they just need to pay more.

If I demand something (dev time, clean water) I will say there’s a shortage if I can’t get it for a certain price.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#144

Post by myrloc »

gigatexal wrote: post #110
seniorsassycat wrote: post #107

I owe my career to on the job training. My first programming job was at a small shop in New Jersey. Their interview had me write a loop, not even fizzbuzz. They asked if I knew JavaScript, Ruby, css, HTML, or SQL, I said no for all of them. They hired me ("at least you haven't learned bad habits") taught me rails, git and about as much about software development as I learned finishing college. I took the job summer a…

Me too. I was a know-nothing kid from off the street with a newly minted economics degree. And I learned SQL as a Junior DBA and now I’m a Senior Python developer at a startup in Germany. Tutoring from senior level coworkers and home study is how I got to where I’m at. I try to give back where I can too!

Curious - are you in Germany on a visa?

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#145

Post by caseysoftware »

So far I've seen everyone on the path of "we train them, they're great, and they leave! That's expensive!"

Fundamentally, I think that's the best case because good->great people can be useful and a benefit to the team in a variety of ways after they get over that first few months.

I think the bigger risk is the people who are unobviously duds. You meet them, they have a ton of potential, and you invest time and effort into them. After that first few months when they should be useful, they're still sucking up time and effort. It's not so much that people complain "get rid of them!" but enough that they never add anything to the team. They suck and suck and suck.. and they still suck.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#146

Post by FranzFerdiNaN »

ben_jones wrote: post #141
LoSboccacc wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Embed salary upgrades within the employment contract. We already know jumping gives on average a 15% salary increase every two years, so you just have to beat or match that. Now people might still leave for more interesting projects, but you get one of the larger motivational factors out of the way. People often leave because negotiating a salary upgrade is way harder than navigating an interview. So, unless your hid…

The problem from zero to hero is more than that. Entry-level college graduate non-developer positions might net 50-60k even in the Bay Area. So if you hire a 22 year old with a degree at that base and then teach them how to be a react pro over the course of two years they will then be eligible for 100k+ salaries. That's a 200%+ increase that is very difficult for even modern businesses to take sitting down. If Starbu…

If you can't pay the guy who has spend the last two years learning everything about your business and your tech stack the going rate for a programmer with two years experience, how are you going to afford new hires at that rate?

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#147

Post by scarejunba »

stormbrew wrote: post #137
ivansavz wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years…

The other replies touch on this, but I'm gonna get straight to the point: Does your friend give them actual, meaningful raises as they grow? Is he actually paying competitively to begin with? Because I think if you have this pattern that consistently, it's really likely that either you're underpaying to begin with or your raises suck or are not even present. I love working at small companies. It's by far my preferenc…

It doesn't matter what his friend gives them. I can beat it _and_ for those who prefer just working on technical design and code with an experienced team, I can offer them that. No forced mentorship taking up your time. Since senior engineer mentorship is a different thing, I can easily give them a better job than the "you have to help train junior engineers" guy.

Altogether, this is the best approach. The guys at two years and slightly more of experience have learned on the job from someone else and you can get them for relatively cheap vs. the huge opportunity cost of having your senior engineers mentor people if they don't want to.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#148

Post by bloomca »

There is a shortage of experienced developers, not just any developers. The irony is that the more developers out there, less percentage of them is experienced.

Training is possible, but in our fast-moving industry everybody wants something tangible as soon as possible, and proper training takes too much time without any guarantees.

Also, you can get a position being a junior, by showing your good attitude, passion to learn, and, sadly, sometimes, desire to overwork – companies like that, because you can grow fast, and will surpass your salary really soon, so they will get a loyal middle developer for price of a junior.

tl;dr: too long to educate a regular person (not a brilliant, a lot of companies will accept these guys) and too big chance they will just leave after some time, without bringing much value.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#149

Post by jhwang5 »

stormbrew wrote: post #137
ivansavz wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years…

The other replies touch on this, but I'm gonna get straight to the point: Does your friend give them actual, meaningful raises as they grow? Is he actually paying competitively to begin with? Because I think if you have this pattern that consistently, it's really likely that either you're underpaying to begin with or your raises suck or are not even present. I love working at small companies. It's by far my preferenc…

One could argue that their "raises" were paid in training

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#150

Post by LoSboccacc »

ben_jones wrote: post #141
LoSboccacc wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Embed salary upgrades within the employment contract. We already know jumping gives on average a 15% salary increase every two years, so you just have to beat or match that. Now people might still leave for more interesting projects, but you get one of the larger motivational factors out of the way. People often leave because negotiating a salary upgrade is way harder than navigating an interview. So, unless your hid…

The problem from zero to hero is more than that. Entry-level college graduate non-developer positions might net 50-60k even in the Bay Area. So if you hire a 22 year old with a degree at that base and then teach them how to be a react pro over the course of two years they will then be eligible for 100k+ salaries. That's a 200%+ increase that is very difficult for even modern businesses to take sitting down. If Starbu…

Those positions are in exceedingly short supply. Also contact can follow whatever salary curve your local market has, so this whole point is moot
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