Live data from Hacker News

Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

idlewords.com

201–210 of 256 posts

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#201
post #185

>What I find particularly suspect is the idea that "intelligence" is like CPU speed, in that any sufficiently smart entity can emulate less intelligent beings (like its human creators) no matter how different their mental architecture. >With no way to define intelligence (except just pointing to ourselves), we don't even know if it's a quantity that can be maximized. For all we know, human-level intelligence could be…

It's possible that we find that the problem solving maximum that can be achieved on a CPU isn't enough better than human intelligence to be classified as a super intelligence.

There are plenty of reasons to think problem solving ability can be maximized (like go and chess, and image recognition, and individual differences in IQ). And no reasons to think we've somehow hit the universal maximum for proven solving ability. Especially since every year computers become better than us on some task.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But humans are the dumbest possible animal capable of creating a technological civilization. If we weren't, then our dumber ancestors would have done so.

Only if evolution is much slower than technological development for our dumber ancestors. If it would have taken them a million years, then they would have gotten smarter before they could do it.

Granted, but none of this implies that homo sapiens has reached some pinnacle of possible intelligence.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you mean it would be dangerous in that it can improve itself beyond our ability to understand, contain, or mitigate it, then possibly. If you're scared of it copying itself and then having multiple existing copies at once, then not necessarily. In that case it would be competing with itself for computing power and bandwidth. Look what happened when bitcoin forked - it lost a bunch of silicon time. (Cue conspiracie…

Bitcoin users are in direct competition with each other. A viral superintelligence wouldn't be. If you thought of that possibility so fast, why do you think a superhuman intelligence would miss it? Or do you think that the problems of job scheduling and parallel processing are unsolvable?

Maybe super intelligence would know that you’d suspect as much and decided to hide in plain sight, knowing it would be suspected but also knowing that humans would just rationalize it as paranoia and dismiss it eventually, letting it do its thing quietly and uninhibited.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#204
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can't even make bug-free web pages. So the idea that we can engineer a bug-free self-improving AGI is unconvincing. This is mostly true because of current economical realities in the IT sector. If very rich people have long-term plans to invent an AGI and they have labs where trying to do so is an everyday activity then I am pretty sure they'll use more serious methodologies. So what you say is true but only wit…

Even software developed with effectively unlimited resources is rather buggy. The closest humanity has ever come to truly reliable software was probably the Space Shuttle flight control system, and that code was relatively simple in a highly constrained problem domain. There is zero evidence that "serious methodologies" would get us any closer to a working AGI.

Oh, definitely. I am not saying that not doing the normal agile crap for development brings us closer to AGI. What I would venture to say though is that trying stuff like formal verification and finding a way to integrate it in a daily workflow would definitely help with the average quality of software developed through such a process. And that maybe the private labs are more liberal and let people's creativity achieve results.

Admittedly, yes, there's no proof. But we as an area are pretty stuck lately IMO. But that goes off-topic.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But humans are the dumbest possible animal capable of creating a technological civilization. If we weren't, then our dumber ancestors would have done so.

There is more to it - the environment, and networking effects (so., the environment, which causes or prevents them). Only some of the human civilizations went all the way to the Internet, we still have people living as hunter/gatherers even today. So the advancement does not come from "inside" alone. In any case, I like to think of humanity more like a brain, human = neuron. There are huge differences, for example, t…

This is entirely fair. I sometimes wonder if there might be some alternate or future timeline where octopi have evolved to be individually much smarter than humans but have no real technological accomplishments because their species is individualistic and territorial.

I still think it's roughly correct to state that humans are a pretty dumb animal that juuuuust manages to pass the threshold of traits required to develop technology.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more to it - the environment, and networking effects (so., the environment, which causes or prevents them). Only some of the human civilizations went all the way to the Internet, we still have people living as hunter/gatherers even today. So the advancement does not come from "inside" alone. In any case, I like to think of humanity more like a brain, human = neuron. There are huge differences, for example, t…

This is entirely fair. I sometimes wonder if there might be some alternate or future timeline where octopi have evolved to be individually much smarter than humans but have no real technological accomplishments because their species is individualistic and territorial. I still think it's roughly correct to state that humans are a pretty dumb animal that juuuuust manages to pass the threshold of traits required to deve…

> I still think it's roughly correct to state that humans are a pretty dumb animal that juuuuust manages to pass the threshold of traits required to develop technology.

I think what I wrote is pretty much in support, or at the very least not opposed. Individually, alone and without our "tools" and man-made environment, we are not much, as movies or games like to show us (e.g. when a guy with only a knife is dropped into the jungle).

In those environments we are actually a lot dumber than those living there, including many animals. So what does "general intelligence" even mean?

I think most of our intelligence is social: We manage our interactions, which enables the network effects. I think we spend most of our efforts managing our relations with one another, more than anything else we use our "intelligence" for.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#207

Under "The Argument From Complex Motivations", I encourage you to read the linked paper on the orthogonality thesis https://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/Orthogonality_An... and then compare it to the OP discussion. The OP doesn't address any of the arguments in the paper. His response is just "nah".

For instance, go to the bottom of page 8 and see this: > Thus to deny the Orthogonality thesis is to assert that there is a goal system G, such that, among other things: > 1. There cannot exist any efficient real-world algorithm with goal G. > 2. If a being with arbitrarily high resources, intelligence, time and goal G, were to try design an efficient real-world algorithm with the same goal, it must fail. > ...4. If…

The claim amounts to saying that the space of definable goals and algorithms for achieving is large, and it would be a strong claim to say some particular corner of that space is impossible. However, from "improbably thing X is not impossible" does not follow that "X is probable". The paper says nothing conclusive on how the mass of probable algorithms is distributed among that space; what it does is to present some arguments formalish-appearing manner which entice reader's intuitions to answer some questions in a way that they would not otherwise. It does not make their claims sound.

When presented with abstract forms of argument, human intuitions are often way off. This is why freshmen in mathematics programs usually spend their first year or so proving calculus and many other theorems from scratch and quite laboriously considering how obvious they are when sounded out ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_value_theorem ). The reason is that that with tools of mathematical analysis many unintuitive things ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weierstrass_function , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox ) may also be said, and so the correct answer is not to trust intuition but proof until student has developed intuition about what really makes calculus to tick.

For example, to paraphrase the argument Armstrong presents on p. 16 "consider all superintelligences that we theoretically could build, is it likely that them having some particular goal would be impossible"? Frankly, I don't know: what is the typical goal, what is the typical path of superintelligence that could be built? Maybe the answer is yes, it would be impossible, and it is only wording that makes it sound unlikely because it invites us to think about large spaces ("all possible X") and small portions of them ("particular goal G") in a certain way. Thinking about space of all possible algorithms and goals, especially about the subset of algorithms that include all kind of intelligent behavior is bound to be unintuitive. The set to which they would "converge to" may not be small, but it still could exclude vast amount of goals, because why would a research team would want to (or even be capable of creating) a creature with blatantly orthogonal goals even if one can draw a hypothetical space of such goals, abstracting away all the important details?

(Secondly, rereading, I believe Armstrong misrepresents the counterarguments by presenting them in extremely strong-looking forms -- convergence thesis, incompleteness thesis -- and tearing them down by arguing that surely it is not totally impossible that something could happen.)

Translated to slightly more formal and mathematical-sounding argument, the author of the talk linked above claims that likely paths for complex minds will not involve them desiring orthogonal goals, because chances of a non-human artificial complex mind arising uniformly randomly from the space of potential algorithms with the vast space of potential goals is negligible: if such being will created, it will be precisely created (or evolved or whatever) following similar principles as the other complex minds on the planet (or by having them as a starting point). In other words, the space of potential algorithms we should concern ourselves with is severely restricted.

(All this assuming that agents and goals is even a sensible framework to model how creatures we call intelligent operate.)

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#208
post #47

I can't help but take a stab. Argument from cats. Remembering that the cat represents humanity: $5 for a group of neurons which will make the cat sit at this point (which happens to be at the entrance into a cat carrier), then $5 for making the cat backpedal a little. Emus. There are many tactics humans can't use for various reasons (saturation nuclear bombardment, for example). It doesn't say much about intelligence…

> Complex Motivations. Maybe, but if not we are screwed. And this is the key: we need to get lucky every time. If we're wrong even once and a 'bad AI' gets created and obtains the ability to copy and modify itself, we've unleashed the most dangerous virus ever and putting it back in the box will be near impossible.

You can make this argument about anything: meteorites, viruses, tigers, supernovae...

And yet, we're still here.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#209
post #199
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consequences famously never came for executives in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis. I'd say that it's a good thing that the law is generally not designed to punish harmful ends, but intent (wilful, negligent or reckless) to cause well-defined harmful ends. The financial crisis was a collective malfunction of the financial system that was mostly not anticipated (barring the lucky minority that bet against the…

I don't think re-packaging subprime debt was so far away from willful and reckless.

Reckless intent requires that the person knew there is was significant risk of the guilty act happening (e.g. driving with your eyes closed to show off has a likely and known risk of causing injury and death). I don't think we can just assume that market makers thought their actions were likely to upend the economy.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For instance, go to the bottom of page 8 and see this: > Thus to deny the Orthogonality thesis is to assert that there is a goal system G, such that, among other things: > 1. There cannot exist any efficient real-world algorithm with goal G. > 2. If a being with arbitrarily high resources, intelligence, time and goal G, were to try design an efficient real-world algorithm with the same goal, it must fail. > ...4. If…

The claim amounts to saying that the space of definable goals and algorithms for achieving is large, and it would be a strong claim to say some particular corner of that space is impossible. However, from "improbably thing X is not impossible" does not follow that "X is probable". The paper says nothing conclusive on how the mass of probable algorithms is distributed among that space; what it does is to present some…

And as an added afterthought: given how much time and effort drafting this kind of obvious counterargument took me, I believe the author of the talk OP linked to was correct in arguing against trying to engage such thinking. Refuting formally presented arguments formally and arguing where they exactly fail when applied to practice requires quite much thinking.
Post reply on HN