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Bringing the Android kernel back to the mainline

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Re: Bringing the Android kernel back to the mainline

#61

Post by bri3d »

ori_b wrote: post #47
jumpywizard wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android Inc should probably have gone with a micro kernel, instead of going for Linux' monolithic approach. Would have made things much easier to manage in regard to separation of concerns.

Wouldn't really help -- the biggest result would be that vendors would have less of a reason to release things under the GPL.

It could help, depending on one's goals - one of the most notorious issues (or features, depending on who you ask) with the Linux development process is ruthless interface refactoring which requires device drivers and board support packages to be in mainline or to become stale almost instantly.

A smaller surface area with a stable HAL would separate the proprietary / often bad board support code from the kernel itself and allow core changes to progress without requiring software-adverse hardware manufacturers to keep up.

Whether or not this is a good thing is certainly debatable, but I'm not convinced the Linux "get to mainline or get wrecked" approach has stood the test of time well.

Re: Bringing the Android kernel back to the mainline

#62

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

pdimitar wrote: post #57
kbenson wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not strictly theoretical. The original comment clearly was calling out the Android and mobile ecosystem in comparison to other hardware devices. If I dig out my iPhone 3g, I'm not getting anything close to the latest iOS on it no matter what I try. I can pull out a laptop from the same time period and install quite a few of the top linux distros on it. Any Apple device is a specific combination of hardware and s…

I've read my parent comment as a claim that we are all doomed because Apple might pull the plug one day -- which I dispute on the grounds that historically this hasn't been true. Also, iPhone 3g is ancient. Outside of that I am in full agreement with you. The mobile ecosystem is basically a dystopia where we have zero recourse as you said.

> Also, iPhone 3g is ancient.

Released 2008. If I get an x86 laptop from 2008, I can install a modern Ubuntu on it with approximately 0 effort. If anything, it'll usually be better than cutting-edge hardware because the drivers have already been developed and released in a stable Linux version. iOS still loses this comparison.

Re: Bringing the Android kernel back to the mainline

#63

Post by Iv »

pedrocr wrote: post #28
School-Cotton wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I buy a phone I install whatever is the latest version of iOS on it and am done ;)

You do nothing of the sort. You're buying a specific combination of hardware and software that may or may not get upgrades and security fixes over time, just like any Android phone. Apple just has a much better track record at doing that than any Android vendor. On the other hand when I buy a laptop or an access point I just do minimal checking of supported hardware in case there's something that's very exotic and th…

I am old enough to remember when buying a new laptop you would actually need to check if the wifi chip, the ACPI vs of the Mobo, the internal ethernet controller, the video card, hell even the sound card, had a linux-supported driver.

It was not always the case and for various reasons (mostly the much heavier integration constraints of different components) it is harder to make on a phone.

It may sound strange, but I think that redemption will come from efforts similar to the PiPhone [1] that allow to create devices from different manufacturers that were not specifically designed to work in a tightly integrated way.

[1] https://learn.adafruit.com/piphone-a-raspberry-pi-based-cell...

Re: Bringing the Android kernel back to the mainline

#64

Post by snazz »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #62
pdimitar wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read my parent comment as a claim that we are all doomed because Apple might pull the plug one day -- which I dispute on the grounds that historically this hasn't been true. Also, iPhone 3g is ancient. Outside of that I am in full agreement with you. The mobile ecosystem is basically a dystopia where we have zero recourse as you said.

> Also, iPhone 3g is ancient. Released 2008. If I get an x86 laptop from 2008, I can install a modern Ubuntu on it with approximately 0 effort. If anything, it'll usually be better than cutting-edge hardware because the drivers have already been developed and released in a stable Linux version. iOS still loses this comparison.

This. I managed to build recent Linux on a Pentium MMX Mobile (IIRC) laptop from 1998. A cell phone from 5 years ago can't handle a modern operating system, but a 1998 laptop can run Xorg just fine.

Re: Bringing the Android kernel back to the mainline

#65

Post by mr_toad »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #62
pdimitar wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read my parent comment as a claim that we are all doomed because Apple might pull the plug one day -- which I dispute on the grounds that historically this hasn't been true. Also, iPhone 3g is ancient. Outside of that I am in full agreement with you. The mobile ecosystem is basically a dystopia where we have zero recourse as you said.

> Also, iPhone 3g is ancient. Released 2008. If I get an x86 laptop from 2008, I can install a modern Ubuntu on it with approximately 0 effort. If anything, it'll usually be better than cutting-edge hardware because the drivers have already been developed and released in a stable Linux version. iOS still loses this comparison.

A 2018 iPhone X is vastly more powerful than a 2008 iPhone 3G, whereas the performance improvement of laptops slowed dramatically after that point.

Take a copy of a standard 2008 version of Ubuntu desktop and try and install it on a 1998 laptop. I doubt it’d run at all, not without ditching the default desktop.

Re: Bringing the Android kernel back to the mainline

#66

Post by fartcannon »

pdimitar wrote: post #46
cronix wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just bringing it up to dispute your claim > So please don't imply iOS updates brings iDevices "ever closer to unusably slow" because that's very non-factual. Because THAT was non-factual. They have done it, and for some it was "unusably slow." Whether the reasons were electrically sound wasn't in dispute.

Seems we're on the same page but we argued different parts. IMO the original statement implied some ill will from Apple -- a myth that has been debunked pretty quickly. That's what I was arguing against.

Oh get off it. Either Apple didn't know they were ruining last gen phones, which means they're incompetent at best or they knew and chose to do it anyways which makes them actively malicious.

Re: Bringing the Android kernel back to the mainline

#67

Post by CrazedGeek »

pdimitar wrote: post #55
kibibu wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ancient iPhone 4 did everything that I needed it to, but I had to abandon it because Apple did too.

I challenge you to name me one Android device that is officially supported for 4 or more years. ;) iPhone 4 is 8 years old so not sure I see your point.

The Nvidia Shield TV is pretty close. It came out May 2015 and is still being supported (most recent update came out in September).

Re: Bringing the Android kernel back to the mainline

#68

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

mr_toad wrote: post #65
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, iPhone 3g is ancient. Released 2008. If I get an x86 laptop from 2008, I can install a modern Ubuntu on it with approximately 0 effort. If anything, it'll usually be better than cutting-edge hardware because the drivers have already been developed and released in a stable Linux version. iOS still loses this comparison.

A 2018 iPhone X is vastly more powerful than a 2008 iPhone 3G, whereas the performance improvement of laptops slowed dramatically after that point. Take a copy of a standard 2008 version of Ubuntu desktop and try and install it on a 1998 laptop. I doubt it’d run at all, not without ditching the default desktop.

Um. I was actually going to concede the point, but look at your sibling comment. Apparently I'm not the craziest one in the room (believe me, I'm more surprised than you).

Re: Bringing the Android kernel back to the mainline

#69

Post by Mononokay »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #58
Mononokay wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with this, if not for the fact that iOS downgrades are literally impossible (outside a small window of time). Install an update and discover your phone is too slow? Either learn to live with it or buy a new phone. Or you could just restore from a backup, possible at any time.

Nope, you can't restore to an iOS version that isn't being actively signed by Apple's servers. Restoring a backup just puts back user data, it doesn't change your iOS version.

That's a complete lie, but okay.

https://medium.com/metodixtech/ios-how-to-downgrade-and-save...

Re: Bringing the Android kernel back to the mainline

#70

Post by Wowfunhappy »

Mononokay wrote: post #69
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, you can't restore to an iOS version that isn't being actively signed by Apple's servers. Restoring a backup just puts back user data, it doesn't change your iOS version.

That's a complete lie, but okay. https://medium.com/metodixtech/ios-how-to-downgrade-and-save...

In the first sentence of the article you linked:

> You can downgrade (If you don’t have Shsh blobs saved) only until Apple is still signing the old software.

Saving SHSH blobs needs to be done in advance, while the iOS version you want to install is still being signed by Apple. With blobs, you used to be able to use a replay attack to force a restore. This doesn't work anymore due to the addition of NONCE, except in very limited and not particularly useful circumstances (you can move to an unsigned iOS version IF you're already Jailbroken AND if SEP is compatible).

If you know a way around this system, please do share. The Jailbreak community will love you for it. :)

Apple does everything in their power to make downgrading iOS impossible outside of a narrow window. I suspect this is also why we haven't seen any actual, definitive speed tests between different iOS versions. The discussion always devolves into "this feels slower" or "I remember my phone used to be like this," because no one can actually install an older version to test with.

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