If you are writing "business" apps (for some definition of business), you should probably use a PaaS.
If you want to create a PaaS, Kubernetes is an excellent foundation (see Knative).
You might not need Kubernetes
231–240 of 319 posts
Re: You might not need Kubernetes
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
They do not, I run tens of low-traffic projects very successfully on a $10/mo Hetzner server on Dokku. Dokku is amazing and so is Hetzner, I don't know why people always go for the high-scalability, expensive options just to end up with 0 utilization.
if you have zero utilization, then you should scale down or lower your instance type until you are optimized for performance and cost. Which is easier to do when you are in an environment such as gce or aws.
There's a minimum when you have deployed each one of your hundred microservices to a server, though.
Re: You might not need Kubernetes
#233Some day I would like a powwow with all you hackers about whether 99% of apps need more than a $5 droplet from Digital Ocean, set up the old-fashioned way, LAMP --- though feel free to switch out the letters: BSD instead of Linux, Nginx instead of Apache, PostgreSQL instead of MySQL, Ruby or Python instead of PHP. I manage dozens of apps for thousands of users. The apps are all on one server, its load average around…
I really think that running a LAMP server for the average beginning developer these days would be just as complicated, maybe more complicated, than running a single deployment on Google Kubernetes Engine. You have to know about package managers and init systems and apache/nginx config files and keep track of security updates for your stack and rotate the logs so the hard drive doesn't fill up. If you already know how…
I tried learning web dev with a LAMP stack and it was frustrating. I hate learning systems that try to do everything for you because you get way too many boxes with question marks over them in your understanding.
Its different after you know how things work, but to start with I really appreciated nc and node http servers
Re: You might not need Kubernetes
#234Its a bit funny to ask this question in this thread, but here we go:
What are the important topics & technologies to learn about with these types of topics? My uni experience didn't really include things like distributed systems or containerization.
Ideally fundamentals that won't be invalidated in 5 years when 'the new thing' becomes something else.
(Love good book recommendations on any subject a new grad should learn, not just this topic)
Re: You might not need Kubernetes
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
Okay, so walk me through how to do this in a dockerfile? My first line becomes: FROM debian@sha256:14e15b63bf3c26dac4f6e782dbb4c9877fb88d7d5978d202cb64065b1e01a88b Okay, that's easy. Now, what about older versions of packages in debian's apt repos that have been deleted? How do I get those? I run my own apt mirror I guess which I update in lock-step with my dockerfile and thus don't let the Dockerfile reach out to th…
> Now, what about older versions of packages in debian's apt repos that have been deleted? How do I get those? you can version pin your apt packages if you need to, i personally prefer the minor patches so i get my security updates. my build tool will catch if there's a bug affecting my software. > Is this any different from what you do in a shell script on a server? yes, because I can take that built image and deplo…
What you describe is still not an idempotent build process, which is all I'm arguing against.
I'm happy to admit docker images are more portable than declarative shell script's output.
You're arguing against something I'm not saying. I'm talking about how easy it is to make script/docker-image-definitions idempotent, not about their usability, not about their distribution.
When I wrote "is this any different from what you do", I meant "what you do to make it idempotent", not is the resulting artifact and usability any different.
Same with "any of this easy", "any of this" was "idempotency", not anything else.
Everything you are arguing against is a strawman based on misreading the intent of my comment I think.
Re: You might not need Kubernetes
#236Earlier quoted context omitted.
Kubernetes isn't the only thing around. Kubernetes and Mesos are kinda the heavyweight solutions, but there are smaller things around like Hashicorps Nomad and Swarm, and probably a lot more I don't know. We're currently evaluating nomad, and it's surprisingly pleasant. Nomad doesn't solve every problem every application in every situation might have. Nomad schedules containers, VMs or whatever else on hosts. This re…
Can you give an idea how big your cluster is? 10, 10s, 100s? I'm curious how well Normand works in reality, but it's hard to find ppl running it.
Right now we're 4 weeks in and IT and 2 guys want it. We're 3 server nodes + 2 client nodes big, 128G RAM, 16 cores, 32 threads. Please go ahead and call this tiny and irrelevant. I'm aware and under the same assumption. I've dealt with individual servers around 4x that size.
But, go ahead and ask me again in 3 or 6 month. We'll migrate around 10 HW servers as nomad clients, we'll probably get HW capacity from our sister company and then we'll start interacting with the 2 other sister companies. If we get all of their resources into nomad, we'd be up to 60 - 80 beefy metal servers. And those 2 other sister companies are in pain for easy windows resources. If nomad can do that properly, I'll be sold for it quite hard. It'll be fun.
Re: You might not need Kubernetes
#237Some day I would like a powwow with all you hackers about whether 99% of apps need more than a $5 droplet from Digital Ocean, set up the old-fashioned way, LAMP --- though feel free to switch out the letters: BSD instead of Linux, Nginx instead of Apache, PostgreSQL instead of MySQL, Ruby or Python instead of PHP. I manage dozens of apps for thousands of users. The apps are all on one server, its load average around…
Initially I was skeptical as well. One server in a colocation will handle enough traffic until you can afford to hire all the people to make you web scale. But then I started playing with the various tools and seeing how people used them, and it totally changed my view. The key point is that many of the new technologies in operations are about simplicity rather than speed. Standing up a stack in AWS can be flipped on…
This is a really interesting comment, thanks
Re: You might not need Kubernetes
#238Some day I would like a powwow with all you hackers about whether 99% of apps need more than a $5 droplet from Digital Ocean, set up the old-fashioned way, LAMP --- though feel free to switch out the letters: BSD instead of Linux, Nginx instead of Apache, PostgreSQL instead of MySQL, Ruby or Python instead of PHP. I manage dozens of apps for thousands of users. The apps are all on one server, its load average around…
The load average on my kubernetes cluster is actually around 3-4 without it even doing anything.
There’s a bunch of apps running in there, but nothing that would justify the load.
It’s also generating roughly 20 log lines per second.
I’m really not sure what it’s doing...
Re: You might not need Kubernetes
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you give an idea how big your cluster is? 10, 10s, 100s? I'm curious how well Normand works in reality, but it's hard to find ppl running it.
Right now we're 4 weeks in and IT and 2 guys want it. We're 3 server nodes + 2 client nodes big, 128G RAM, 16 cores, 32 threads. Please go ahead and call this tiny and irrelevant. I'm aware and under the same assumption. I've dealt with individual servers around 4x that size. But, go ahead and ask me again in 3 or 6 month. We'll migrate around 10 HW servers as nomad clients, we'll probably get HW capacity from our si…
I'm not the person you're directly replying to but I'm the guy who originally asked the question at the top level, and I can say your needs right now are far bigger than mine. Right now my 5-container Dokku host has 4GB of RAM with 2 CPUs, but we're expecting to ramp up quickly.
It's good to hear your input as I expect to be a similar size to you in a year or two. Far from irrelevant. I'll have to look into it.
Re: You might not need Kubernetes
#240I do my level best to stay away from containers. I don't think most people even need them. It's a fad of sorts. I tend to stick with the tried and true and not follow trends, cloud or otherwise. Nothing worse than having your data on someone else's HW and losing connectivity through no fault of your own. Years ago, I worked for UUNET in Reston/Ashburn, VA, and built web servers and the attendant HW/SW that ran them (…
But containers and cloud don't necessarily go together.
It took me barely five minutes to convince my boss we shouldn't move everything to the cloud — a quick estimate on the AWS calculator was enough.
But he's still keen to try Kubernetes. I think we can improve our deployment process (currently custom scripts) and introduce genuine load balancing, but there's a big increase in complexity. The custom scripts aren't very long, I suspect we'll need at least the same amount of configuration for Kubernetes, plus we add Kubernetes itself.
He's hoping for more ops understanding/interest from developers, and which is probably reasonable, but at the cost of less understanding of the whole system from the ops staff. I think there's some CV-driven-development too.
Step 1 will have to be us documenting what we expect to achieve from Kubernetes, and how we will measure achievement.