Live data from Hacker News

The present phase of stagnation in the foundations of physics is not normal

backreaction.blogspot.com

51–60 of 218 posts

Re: The present phase of stagnation in the foundations of physics is not normal

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh, so true. Heartening that Shor has the same thoughts about the grant system that I do. I don't have quite the same critical perspective as the blogger, but I think there's a certain misguided attitude underlying the phenomena observed by Shor. Yesterday or the day before I was listening to the radio and someone with a physics background was talking about something (I think quantum entanglement) and started asser…

>> What irritated me about it was the assumption that, if most of your predictions are correct, your model is almost entirely correct, and just needs to be tweaked a bit. Haha, no. We wish. Epicycles worked very well and were highly accurate, because, as Fourier analysis later showed, any smooth curve can be approximated to arbitrary accuracy with a sufficient number of epicycles. However, they fell out of favour wit…

> the frame of reference is wrong

According to General Relativity, there's no such thing as a "wrong" frame.

Re: The present phase of stagnation in the foundations of physics is not normal

#52
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is "her" complaint, not "his". This is Sabine Hossenfelder, a well known theorist (mostly for her outreach/popularization work). And you are misrepresenting this"taboo" you are talking about. Thinking about what quantum mechanics "means" is how we got breakthroughs in quantum computing and theoretical computer science. Similarly, there is plenty of exciting deep theoretical work in particle physics beyond the smas…

Oops, my mistake on the gender- Sabine is not a super familiar name. (Still dislike the tone, though; don't care how famous she is). I also think the taboo has lifted a bit, as it's now possible for mainstream physicists like David Deutsch and Sean Carroll to build their careers on quantum foundations work. But I still think the physics community has a lot of baggage from the second half of the twentieth century to l…

It is not clear to me in what way the tone of your post differs from that of the article.

Re: The present phase of stagnation in the foundations of physics is not normal

#53
post #14

While I don't like this ~guy's~ woman's disdainful, superior tone, I do think his complaint has merit. Physics is notoriously bad at having curiosity about strange, unconventional, or truly novel ideas. I just finished reading What is Real? by Adam Becker-- a history of modern physics-- and am astonished at how aggressively physicists resisted and suppressed "unconventional" interpretations of quantum mechanics (like…

>Physics is notoriously bad at having curiosity about strange, unconventional, or truly novel ideas.

Physics of today would be unrecognisable to a scientist at the start of the 20th century. Indeed the physics of 1935 would be unrecognisable to a scientist at the start of the 20th century. Our understanding progressed enormously AND it did so because people put forward radical theories in complete rupture with the established, 300-year old classical mechanics. There was no "traditionalist resistance" to it after it became apparent that classical mechanics failed to explain phenomena that quantum theory did explain.

>am astonished at how aggressively physicists resisted and suppressed "unconventional" interpretations of quantum mechanics (like the many worlds interpretation) in favor of the obviously-wrong Copenhagen interpretation [emphasis mine]

Ahahaha, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. There is nothing "obviously wrong" about the standard Copenhagen interpretation (unless you have some new insight you would like to share), nor was there any suppression of ideas. Many debates have been waged in the past ~100 years, and many alternative interpretations have been put forward, like Bohmian theory, superdeterminism, or "shut-up-and-calculate".

>decided that it was meaningless to ask any deep questions about what QM actually meant

Physics, indeed all science, studies observable reality. Any "deep" questions about why or about things not measurable, quantifiable, or empirically observable, are by definition outside the scope of science. It is therefore as unreasonable as complaining about why don't geologists study epistemology. The answer is the same: it's outside the scope of their study.

I also don't like that your phrase seems to imply that what physicists study is not "deep" as opposed to your philosophical questions. There are many deep and beautiful ideas in physics.

Re: The present phase of stagnation in the foundations of physics is not normal

#54

Well considering that we know everything pretty much about most of everyday physics and new physics requires energies that are almost unreachable and billions of dollars in experimental investment and/or years and decades to collect sufficient data, it's not a surprise at all that foundations of physics progress has slowed. I don't think the physics community is to blame here. Just the nature of reality

Well, if you can't build your own super-energetic-particle accelerator, borrow some-one else's! In this case, that would mean telescopes pointed at jetting black holes. Those bad boys are very high energy and should be making some really exotic particles. Granted, the resolution we need isn't really there yet either, but I think that making a system spanning telescope is a bit easier than a system-spanning accelerator. Still, you're right, the next (theoretical) energy regimes are much higher than what we can manage to build today. We're forced to look at the stars for 'inspiration' for the foreseeable future. This particular golden age of physics is passed.

Re: The present phase of stagnation in the foundations of physics is not normal

#55
post #3

Love this comment left on the post by Peter Shor (of Shor's algorithm--the algorithm that kicked off the quantum computing frenzy). I assume it's him and not an imposter. "It's not just that scientists don't want to move their butts, although that's undoubtedly part of it. It's also that they can't. In today's university funding system, you need grants (well, maybe you don't truly need them once you have tenure, but…

As a scientist, fund raising of grants is by far the worst part of the job. NSF rejects proposals with 3 "very good" scores as low competitive regularly. It isn't that they don't think the work is terrible. It's just limited resources.

Re: The present phase of stagnation in the foundations of physics is not normal

#56
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oops, my mistake on the gender- Sabine is not a super familiar name. (Still dislike the tone, though; don't care how famous she is). I also think the taboo has lifted a bit, as it's now possible for mainstream physicists like David Deutsch and Sean Carroll to build their careers on quantum foundations work. But I still think the physics community has a lot of baggage from the second half of the twentieth century to l…

It is not clear to me in what way the tone of your post differs from that of the article.

Here's a snippet:

> Another comment-not-a-question I constantly have to endure is that I supposedly only complain but don’t have any better advice for what physicists should do.

> First, it’s a stupid criticism that tells you more about the person criticizing than the person being criticized.

These feel closer in tone to "personal attack" on her critics to me than a discussion of their ideas.

There is also discussion of ideas in the article, which I have no problem with. But snippets like that feel like unnecessary salt that doesn't add anything. While her critics are (I agree, mostly) wrong, there is no reason to call them stupid.

Re: The present phase of stagnation in the foundations of physics is not normal

#58
post #14

While I don't like this ~guy's~ woman's disdainful, superior tone, I do think his complaint has merit. Physics is notoriously bad at having curiosity about strange, unconventional, or truly novel ideas. I just finished reading What is Real? by Adam Becker-- a history of modern physics-- and am astonished at how aggressively physicists resisted and suppressed "unconventional" interpretations of quantum mechanics (like…

> The modern astrophysical world view, which began with Galileo, and its challenge to the adequacy of the senses to reveal reality, have left us a universe of whose qualities we know no more than the way they affect our measuring instruments, and — in the words of Eddington — "the former have as much resemblance to the latter as a telephone number has to a subscriber." Instead of objective qualities, in other words, we find instruments, and instead of nature or the universe — in the words of Heisenberg — man encounters only himself.

-- Hannah Arendt, "Vita Activa"

Heisenberg and others knew that, I'm sure many current scientists do too, but going by output, the situation is dire, the intertubes are full of people talking about being "unbiased" or "objective" even about human matters, when not even the hard sciences are truly objective! It's like people simply agreed that because they're not religious or whatever, they're now correct. If they are wrong about anything, since they supposedly are on the side of science, they can be sure that will be corrected, so they can consider themselves correct even today. Before you know it, you have superstitious people who think their superstition constitutes the absence, the opposite of superstition.

We went from Heisenberg to a chemistry teacher cooking crack while his assistant gets all bug-eyed about the power of "science, bitch!". Or this "critique" of the game Soma I saw recently, where the Youtuber mentions that "people who are smarter than you and I are saying the universe might be a simulation". What I see is people booby-trapping everything with stupidity.. making things so stupid, and then glorifying that, that injecting even a lick of seriousness into anything would cause massive offense, hurt a lot of egos. To me it's the analog of religious fundamentalists going to church 20 times a day to get hyped and primed with caricatures of those not of their flock, and fantasies of how great it's all going to be when those are gone.

But I'm not sure I can blame physicists for that. I don't know enough about what they do, I see what "everyone" else is doing, and that's horrid by itself. It's not the job of physicists to ask deep questions about what it all means, it's the job of everybody.

Re: The present phase of stagnation in the foundations of physics is not normal

#59
post #7

I kind of like the model of the turn of the 19th century where you had great geniuses like Tesla who would just get funding to create whatever kind of cool crap they could think of. Are there still any people like that in physics? Legendary scientists/engineers who run there own lab and just make cool stuff?

> Are there still any people like that in physics? Legendary scientists/engineers who run there own lab and just make cool stuff?

That's pretty much what I've been going for. Got my PhD in Chemical Engineering and an MBA, and now I'm starting my lab - or "startup", here - in pursuit of my research, basically into strong AI.

Bootstrapping is an interesting process. I mean, I have to keep the lights on somehow, though there's an inherent conflict-of-interests between keeping the lights on and doing the core work that the lights are there for.

Still, what can one do beyond keeping at it?

Re: The present phase of stagnation in the foundations of physics is not normal

#60
post #53
post #14

While I don't like this ~guy's~ woman's disdainful, superior tone, I do think his complaint has merit. Physics is notoriously bad at having curiosity about strange, unconventional, or truly novel ideas. I just finished reading What is Real? by Adam Becker-- a history of modern physics-- and am astonished at how aggressively physicists resisted and suppressed "unconventional" interpretations of quantum mechanics (like…

>Physics is notoriously bad at having curiosity about strange, unconventional, or truly novel ideas. Physics of today would be unrecognisable to a scientist at the start of the 20th century. Indeed the physics of 1935 would be unrecognisable to a scientist at the start of the 20th century. Our understanding progressed enormously AND it did so because people put forward radical theories in complete rupture with the es…

> There is nothing "obviously wrong" about the standard Copenhagen interpretation

Can you tell me how to calculate whether a system of particles will cause another system of particles to collapse or not?

Can you tell me under what circumstances a system of particles will evolve unitarily or not?

Can you shade the region of the spacetime diagram of EPR where the wavefunction is collapsed? How about in a delayed choice quantum eraser experiment?

If you tell me "you're not allowed to ask those questions" (or "hm, I never thought of that!"), then you're directly illustrating the complaint here about physics!

The common narrative is that Copenhagen, many worlds, and the other interpretations of QM are all equivalent, but they are not. Copenhagen adds an extra physical event-- collapse-- where the wavefunction is suddenly nonunitary. The burden is on Copenhagen to tell me how and when this happens, and in fact to prove that it happens at all. Many worlds, on the other hand, predicts the same phenomenon-- the apparent collapse of a wavefunction to an eigenstate-- without adding unitarity violation, or any other phenomena at all beyond the normal, extremely well-verified mechanics of multi-particle system scattering; it merely treats the environment is a multi-particle quantum system.

Many worlds is the null hypothesis (no, the extra worlds are not extra suppositions, they are predictions of known physical laws), and the burden is on Copenhagen to show that unitarity violation exists, and the burden is extremely high (possibly insurmountable?) for EPR and eraser experiments.

When Copenhagen was devised, most believed that there was some "underlying state" in QM, and that measurement told you something about what the underlying state was. Bell's theorem should have sent a shockwave through the community which forced everyone to reevaluate fundamental assumptions and self-correct wrong ideas. But by accident of history, John Bell was too shy to publish in a major journal, and no one even read his result for four years. The implications of Bell's theorem were slow to diffuse through the community, and so the disruptive moment of reckoning that should have happened never came. By the time it was well-accepted, the narrative in physics had become "you're not allowed to ask about what quantum mechanics means, just shut up and calculate", and so the cognitive dissonance was cast aside. Annealing this attitude and this misstep away is taking excruciating decades.

EDIT: I also don't mean to imply that there aren't deep and beautiful things in modern physics. There are! But physics is concertedly avoiding asking deep questions in areas where (I strongly believe) it is most important. The claim that "the meaning of QM is outside the scope of science" is exemplary, I think, of that attitude.

Post reply on HN