I toiled like you seem to be for a long time, cleaning up technical debt, and writing well-architected (but very time-consuming) code. I learned a few things (things I have to remind myself of often, when I too feel the anger rising at people who don't place the same priority on those things): The business is almost never paying to you clean up technical debt. They are paying you to generate revenue (or save costs).…
There's so much wisdom in the post. >The business is almost never paying to you clean up technical debt. They are paying you to generate revenue (or save costs). Period. So true. Once you're in enterprise nobody cares that you wrote the connection pool yourself (which I did and nobody gave a darn). I did 5 years in enterprise and decided that was enough for a lifetime. >Nobody gets credit for building a system that n…
Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people
111–120 of 139 posts
Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not OP or in this chain, but I'm surprised you say this (Rarely see snakes.) I have nothing to complain about. I've done very well career wise, and have no reason to beef with any of these people. But at the same time, I've concretely seen individuals lie outright, blackmail, threaten, insult, and bully their way to success. That you say you rarely see this makes me raise an eyebrow. I've gone through the "maybe I'm…
Oh, I've seen snakes too. But I've seen people imagining that those they disagree with are snakes about 100x as much (or more). And if people don't get past this idea that everyone they're at odds with is a malicious, incompetent cheater, they can wind up being a simmering pot of bitter paranoia as they get older, unable to see the good in others. People who let bitterness rule their lives are far, far more common th…
I think perhaps the issue here is that I'm coming at the discussion from over-correcting the opposite direction; I was raised with very much a "people are All Good(TM)" outlook, regularly being fed the "Things get better after highschool/people grow up" line as a child. I've found that these both gave me ineffective priors for navigating adult life, largely due to that if you assume people are acting with your best interests at heart, you may be less inclined to look out for your own best interests yourself, or at the very least how other people may be compromising it, consciously or not.
Framing it in terms of incentives also has the wonderful side effect of circumventing a lot of they "are they malicious or just self-serving" question since it hops right to "how do you fit your success into whatever equation everyone else is trying to route into"; my inquiry of whether they were TRULY malicious is usually made post-factum (or given sufficient evidence)
As a final statement (and to couch my own incompetence with tone over the internet, please don't let any of this come across as a You're Wrong!), I'm not sure I'd agree with your statement that people with bitterness outnumber those who would manipulate others, at least in my work context. In the lense of my "incentives" stance, both are continuums of behavior, but the bitterness continuum is counter-productive to career advancement while the "manipulating incentives" continuum is productive, so I'd logically expect to see more of the latter. (I guess the real crux here is "when does it become malicious," but that's a whole separate discussion)
Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Generally, I don't see a lot of these "snakes" out in the real world, but I see a tremendous amount of misunderstandings, resentment, and righteous indignation. As I told the OP elsewhere, we're all the hero of our own stories, and everyone we disagree with is a villain. But ask the villain, and they think they're the hero. It's human nature. We don't want…
Stupidity and malice can often be two sides of the same coin. I once worked with an individual who shot down a project idea, but then executed it in secret for two weeks before revealing it as his pet project. After confronting him, he initially did not understand why this was deceitful. It took 3-4 conversations before he finally understood and sincerely apologized. He felt he was simply being competitive and that e…
I'm pretty sure this was simply because he thought it couldn't be done, and I just put the niggling thought in his mind so he tried and was successful.
Weirdly enough he was the introvert and I less so, and I got the promotion. No hard feelings on either end, as far as I know. We all have our quirks.
Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people
#114I've been in a similar situation and can relate to most of what you've described. In my case, I pointed it out to upper management multiple times but they failed to take action. I left the organization eventually.
Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's so much wisdom in the post. >The business is almost never paying to you clean up technical debt. They are paying you to generate revenue (or save costs). Period. So true. Once you're in enterprise nobody cares that you wrote the connection pool yourself (which I did and nobody gave a darn). I did 5 years in enterprise and decided that was enough for a lifetime. >Nobody gets credit for building a system that n…
Probably made it look too easy. That'll get you nowhere.
Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes I agree with you, the point is that being technical person doing a technical job I thought that the value that I create will talk more than the nonsense of some people. As I like to act first and share later, but there are people who talk but don't know how to act properly. I can build this skills as you said, true, but in my position now it would be impossible to get a promotion as the available spot has been ta…
>I thought that the value that I create will talk more than the nonsense of some people. Nope. Silence is always less noticeable than noise. Evil prevails when good men do nothing. Also, nonsense fluff prevails when good work isn't spoken of. You have a professional duty to make sure nonsense is crowded out by important information. No one is going to do that for you. Follow the rule of three...tell people what you a…
Often, when you do good work and are good at what you do, it actually looks like your job is easy, even when you are busting your ass to get results!
Some of the best engineers I remember working with did the over-communicating stuff you advise and I remember it was always very clear what they were working on versus other people. They also had a knack for communicating the work in the simplest terms for everyone to understand.
Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
The root problem is that there are too many idiots in management positions; they can't see through all the bullshit. Also, there are too many dumb investors; our entire global economy runs on dumb money. Don't waste your time trying to create value; let other people create the value and focus all your energy on capturing that value.
Ok, but ... How are we supposed to agree with your position when you waste time giving such valuable free advice?
Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people
#118I never heard anything about incompetence in your description. Technical debt can build up for myriad reasons not related much to competence. What I would suggest is not to approach this situation as how you can wall off or otherwise attack this person but, instead as a life lesson on the importance of interpersonal relationships and politics. Politics are a fact of life. Humans are social creatures. All things being…
Or short: It's not what you do, it's what people think you do.
To understand why, ask yourself 'When's the last time I went out of my way to discover if someone else did well?'
Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes I agree with you, the point is that being technical person doing a technical job I thought that the value that I create will talk more than the nonsense of some people. As I like to act first and share later, but there are people who talk but don't know how to act properly. I can build this skills as you said, true, but in my position now it would be impossible to get a promotion as the available spot has been ta…
The root problem is that there are too many idiots in management positions; they can't see through all the bullshit. Also, there are too many dumb investors; our entire global economy runs on dumb money. Don't waste your time trying to create value; let other people create the value and focus all your energy on capturing that value.
Now, when's the last time you went out of your way to discover if and how someone screwed up?
The difference is just how people are wired. We are all kind of dumb.
As a fun exercise, track down someone responsible for having made your life better today, find out exactly how they did it and give them a piece of your mind about it.
Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you can't beat them, join them. My current thinking is that the only way to make the world better is by helping to make it worse; things will not improve until there is total collapse so make it happen faster.
"Let us do evil that good may result"? No thanks. And if you understood what total collapse will mean - the incredible human cost of it - you would not propose it even as a constructive step.
It's a cost I'm willing to accept... So long as that human is not me ;p